S-Class Fiasco: W220 vs W140 - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

turnne1 · #46 10-16-2001, 02:58 PM

Trust me I am the type that will pay for quality....but the way I figure it....for the new S-class to be built in the same manner as the 140...the new cars would have to start around 90-95K for an S430 and go up from there......I think many people look at a loaded LS430(at about 20-25K less) and wonder how benz even charges what they do now for an entry level S class......
I think the new S is a much superior car to the LS...(well except for reliability)
I remember when the 140 debuted...I could not believe the price....I wondered is there truly a market for a mass produced car at that price....and being that the 126 outsold the 140 several times over I think MB wondered the same thing ...even after lowering the prices of 140's ,they were heavilly discounted at the dealers.....I think the new cars symbolize the era of accountants running the company rather than engineers

Warren
1992 300SD 125 K
Columbus Ohio
turner@greif.com

#47 10-21-2001, 11:19 AM

Ever since I saw my first W140 (a '93 600SEL), I have been in love with the cars for all the reasons stated above. It did epitomize the cost-no-object approach to design and build which was both MB's greatest strength and its greatest weakness (because it compromised the overall cost of ownership, not just the up front price of the car).

Nevertheless, until the last 2 weeks, I agreed with those above who thought the 220 cars were a "sellout" or even a POS, and no where near the 140 in "MB values."

Then, my MB salesman called and said they had just got 2 140's in off lease - '99 and '98 S500's. I took the 98 (in near perfect shape with only 28k miles) home for an overnight test drive. Compared to my 2000 E430W4, it was like driving an aircraft carrier, though the ride quality and acceleration were fantastic. My wife and kids, however, thought it was "way too big" and "drove like a Grand Marquis". My wife said no way would she let me trade the E4304Matic for that car, based on either the appearance or the fun-to-drive factor.

Just out of curiosity, I decided to drive the 220's. Drove a 500 and a 430. I was totally won over by the new car's ease of maneuvering, more efficient use of space, and the presence of standard Airmatic, ESP and EBP. The gizmos (navigation, 14 way seats, etc.) were not the selling point for me - the car simply feels and drives the way a Benz ought to, IMHO. Wife and kids thought the 220 looked "awesome" and drove much better than the 140. In the end, I began to agree.

External looks - the 140 is still the king.
Interior and driving experience - give me the 220.

Picked up a black/charcoal '01 S430V w/Xenons, F/R heated seats, CD, and rear side shades on Friday for an unbeatable year-end closeout price. It's the nicest MB I've ever experienced.

Now, when I go to buy a "classic" MB as a toy, give me a 1979 450 SEL 6.9....

akry · #48 10-21-2001, 02:59 PM

I think most of us agree that W220 drives/rides better than W140, but quality is what disappointed us the most!!!

Congrat on the new car, BTW..

Andy Kuo

#49 10-21-2001, 03:56 PM

There are rumors that MB might put in a V-6 in the 220 in the next couple of years or even offer a Diesel, if it can pass emissions and all that.

A. Rosich · #50 10-21-2001, 04:03 PM

In most markets, the W220 can be ordered as:

S280, V6 2.8 liter, SWB
S320, V6 3.2 liter, SWB/LWB
S430, V8 4.3 liter, SWB/LWB
S500, V8 5.0 liter, SWB/LWB
S600, V12 6.liter, SWB/LWB
S320CDI, V6 3.2 liter turbodiesel, SWB
S400CDI, V8 4.0 liter turbodiesel, SWB/LWB

It is a shame the U.S. market limits its customers to just a few choices.

A. Rosich
S320, 1998
E320T, 1995

#51 10-21-2001, 10:00 PM

AFAIK the S55 (which you left out) and the S600 cannot be ordered as SWB cars anywhere in the world. See Weltweit MB website.

turnne1 · #52 10-22-2001, 08:52 AM

I would agree that the 220 is much more manuverable than the 140....although I have only driven the 220 for about 10-15 miles.....but I do think that the quality of the leather and workwork is much less.....the 140 just seems to be a much more substantial heavy duty car.........but the true test of the 220 will be how it will age and how easilly it wears...those have always been Benz hallmarks....but it seems that will the last few cars the quality of interior materials has dropped a bit from the car the preceeded it.

Warren
1992 300SD 126K
Columbus Ohio

turnne1 · #53 10-22-2001, 09:30 AM

I agree......MB was building cars and letting the prices fall where ever instead of building a car to hit a certain price point.....that worked for a while....but here comes Lexus and people looked closely at the price/ value equation.....I think the 140 was a better built car in terms of quality materials....as I think most people would agree....but not enough to have justified the huge difference in price(25-30K).....and the fact that the Lexus was so much more realiable than the 140...
In terms of the post 1995 price decrease,I know from a good friends parents who purchased a new S500 back in '98....they were discounting heavilly from the sticker price of the S-Class....sticker on their car was 90K and they purchased it for 78K
Not sure what the actual transaction costs were for the early cars(92-94)....hopefully not sticker!!!!

Warren
1992 300SD 126K
Columbus Ohio

akry · #54 10-22-2001, 05:05 PM

My 400SE when new(back in 1992), was actually couple grand more than a 500E. In 1994, a E500 would be roughly 3K more than a S420(LWB, before facelift)... hope you got the idea of the price... :p

Even in W140, you can really tell the differences in quality and workmanship. My GF's parents '95 S320 has some minor, rattle sound coming out of glove compartment, some of the pieces in the interior are not line up properly, and the sound of shutting the door is not as solid as my aged '92....

P.S. I also don't think you can S600 in SWB form... for W140, YES there is S600 SWB, but not W220....Not sure about S55 though..
Andy Kuo

#55 10-22-2001, 10:50 PM

Andy-

Are you sure there was a SWB 600 140? what years was it produced and in what countries was it offered?

Just curious.

Gilly · #56 10-22-2001, 11:35 PM

Hi, hope you don't mind me butting in, I have tons of info of this type. Still unsure if this was offered in the US, the engine did have catalytic converters, though. I don't believe it was offered in the US, not 100% sure.
Preproduction began in 10.90, production models 04.91, it was called the 600SE. In 06.93 it was called simply the S600. The long S600 was called the S600 long wheelbase, no badge to tell the difference between a long and short wheelbase.
Total production of all short wheelbase 600 140 chassis was 3,399, including preproduction vehicles.
Gilly

#57 10-22-2001, 11:41 PM

Interesting. What would have been the point? I mean, in every country I can think of, the V-12 S Class would have been a limousine or else personal transport for CEOs/sports stars/VIPs etc. Who among the target audience would care about a SWB version? Or are there countries where it would matter for legal reasons?

akry · #58 10-23-2001, 12:20 AM

gillybenztech,

Thnx for the quick reply.. hehe..

Anyways, if you look through dealers papers, some times you would notice something like S320W and S320L(on papers for W140s made from 1994-1996) written on the paper instead of "S320" badge on the truck...

S320W = SWB
S320L = LWB

HOWEVER, some how, MB decided to change again, and uses S320V/S500V for LWB from 1997... and "W" for SWB(not sure about this one though.. have to check).

Here is the break down... use S500 for example...

S500V OR S500L = LWB
S500C = Coupe
S500W = SWB

Andy Kuo

Gilly · #59 10-23-2001, 12:43 AM

Yeah, good point.
Small garage?
In my info, there was no performance differences that I could find, fuel mileage also was nearly identical, so there go the first 2 thoughts I had, either performance gains for a slightly (100mm) shorter car, or the less weight (10kg lighter).
The only marginally significant difference? Price.
In 1998, the last price quoted for the short S600, it cost 4,176DM less than the long wheel base. This was 04.98.
The low production figures seem to reflect that it really wasn't such a hot product to make. 3,400 cars is really a drop in the bucket, although my info does cover the S500 long wheelbase landaulet:
Production date 3.97, number produced: 1 (for the Vatican)
God Bless America! God Bless The Popes S500!
Gilly

turnne1 · #60 10-23-2001, 10:57 AM

I don't think the 600V-12 was ever offered in the shortwheelbase version in the 140.(in the US)....I think the only 140's available were the 300SE(S320) the 400SE(92 only) and all the diesel 140 300SD(S350)......and I think they only sold about 3000 diesels 140's in the three years they were imported stateside.....most of the shortwheelbase cars will be 300SE's (S320)

Warren
1992 300SD 126K
Columbus Ohio

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