Yeah , I will "Hit you Up DUDE "....

Right after you learn the basic 101 stuff...
Series/Parallel circuits ... musta learned that on you firsat day at school...look it up in " Basis Electronics for kids''

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A Dalton

Go back and see the file I uploaded. Then let's see something you've designed and built.

Y'know, I was trying to be polite here, but my opinion of you has dropped several pegs.


-tp

There is not enough space here for me to list the stuff i have built, Sonny....

..and I have already read enough of your post to know how you "Roll, Dude"

..so, I leave it there ..

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A Dalton

This is going to be my last post in this thread. I don't want to drag this forum down into a flame war. I would just like to point out that:

1) You are being extremely rude.
2) You are quoting me with things I never said.
3) You are disrespecting me, and the things I have worked very hard to achieve.
4) You dismiss my argument without any logical counter argument.
5) You are unable to prove your point, so you resort to insults.


The sad thing is that I was hoping you could shed some light on this circuit and help me understand it better. I don't have the schematic handy, but I think that pointing out such simple matters as the direction electrons flow in a circuit are obvious enough to skirt debate.

I'm sorry that my understanding of electricity somehow makes you feel threatened enough to rear back on your hind legs as such, but that's not what I was trying to do.

It was my sincere hope that together, as a forum, we could pool our collective knowledge in a way that would enhance our mutual understanding of this circuit. It was NOT my desire to get in a pissing contest.

I think other readers will be quite able to deduce for themselves who is being reasonable here and who is not.

And as for you repeatedly calling me "sonny", I would like to point out that you have no idea how old I am. I'm probably your elder, if the maturity level of your posts is in any way representative of your physical age.

Goad me all you want, I'm leaving this thread so as not to diminish the otherwise helpful and contributive tone in this forum.

Grow up.


-tp

I hear ya..


>

wrong..... when you responded to a post that I have gone into correct detail on with a :
"it ain't gonna happen "..then you should expect to get some crap back...
..cuz it does happen.. everytime the engine runs....and it happens b/c it is a SERIES CIRCUIT. That was the point and that is how they work, regardless of your opinions.



..but I do , so I will be posting that this evening from the AllData schematic for 124/104 Waste Spark..that will clear it right up for you and the Forum , which is my main concern..it is best that the Archieves contain the correct info for future inquiries.
Aside from that..I'm fine with the rest and it certainly will not happen again...surely.

"Hit you Up DUDE "... "Roll, Dude" Are the things I never said, which you placed in quotes. I found them derogatory and insulting. I'm over it.

Whatever, who cares..... It's not like I haven't gone off half-cocked on other forums before, so let's just sweep this under the rug. You're clearly a knowledgeable person, I was never trying to assert otherwise. I just think you've got the circuit flow inverted, which anybody could do.

Okay, let's abandon the flame here and work towards getting this thread with the correct info. I'd like to see the schematic very much. I'd like to comment on it, as I am quite capable of reading a schematic.

What I am suspecting is that there may be some similarity to the old Harley design, where the secondary of the ignition coil has a positive and negative tap, and is also center tapped, with the center tap grounded. In this setup, either the positive or negative high voltage is satisfied to arc to chassis ground.

One thing that just cannot be true is the notion that the plugs themselves are in the middle of the circuit. If that were the case, removing one would prevent the second from firing, and anecdotal evidence shows that this is simply not the case.

Like I said before, I think what we will discover from the schematic is that the coil is in the middle of the series circuit, and the plugs are on either end. There is no way I can see the plugs being in the middle of the circuit, since I just cannot see how a spark can possibly travel across the engine block at ground potential, and then still arc across another plug. It just isn't possible.

What I am describing is the same as what you are describing, except that I truly feel that you have described the circuit path correctly, just backwards. I suspect that the engine block is the endpoint on both ends of the circuit, and the coil is in the middle. That WOULD work...... The coil has to be in the middle, sucking the electrons from one plug and pushing them into the other.

I also think that if you take into account that electrons flow from negative to positive, you will see my point more clearly.

I know I said I wouldn't continue on this thread, but since we are talking about the circuit again, let's get to the bottom of it.

I apologize if I offended you in any way, it certainly was not my intent. I only aim to get to the truth, which ultimately benefits us all.


Thanks,

-tp

Yor misconception is that the SOURCE of the power is the COIL secoundary winding ..not the block.
So, the power has to go from one end of the coil to the other to complete the circuit ..and the plugs are in series with the coils output.
You will plainly see that when I post schematic.

I will post this basic info for menbers:
Waste system were short lived by Benz b/c they were a series circuit and they had a high failure rate b/c of the faults of all Series circuits....The two main problems with series spark is the plugs fire out of phase/lpolarity ONLY b/c they are fed by a series rather than a parallel circuit...plugs were never designed to fire from the case to the electrode, but b/c a waste system was series, they had to go with that inefficenecy...the thought was that b/c one plug was not an EVENT plug [ meaning under compression load] , that the coil would overcome this ineffiecentcy b/c they were capable of 40K output. [ not like the old 15-20K coils ] . The reason they even went with the three coils was that got them into Distributorless Ignition, were the ECU controlled spark. With 3 coils, the duty cycle of each was drastically reduce in comparison to the duty of a standard ignition [ not using same coil for ALL cylinder firings]. The second problem was being in Series , as you know with series circuits, the next load down the line in a dc circuit is allways less than the one before it.
Back on the old ignition systems, we would use a lead pencil trick to check a coils polarity..and if it were wrong [ firing from case to electrode ] , we had to swap the wires on the coil b/c the car would run like crap..the reason was there was a 30% defieciency in an out of phase firing plug..on the old systems , the coils output was so poor that the incorrect polarity would instantly show up as a poor ignition condition..that is not the case w/waste b/c of the extreme high output of the coils secondary can overcome this. But these two inherent faults took there toll and anyone wo works on these knows the trouble they had , specially with the early DIS Blue Coils...those didn't last 50K miles , at the most.
So, Benz came to use a newer design and came out with individual coil/over. This change solved both the elimination of the series circuit/polarity problems [ all plugs would now fire from elect to ground] and it also cut the duty cycle of each coil way down, even from duty of waste spark. This was good for both the coils demand and the ECU trigger circuits.
So, that is just basic waste spark history and basic workings...it was not a great system right from the get-go and b/c of it/s weaknesses , we have found that they are susceptical to the correct plugs ..and experience has proven which ones they like the best.
Can a spark fire form coil kick-back if a plug is out of the circuit...maybe...but not fire as a normally firing criteria is concerned..
The system is series and both plugs are required for normal series firings and normal engine Ignition...and , unfortunately, with each plug out of phase with the other ..not consudered to be the best ignition set-up and asking for trouble by design right out of the box.
That's about what my experience has been with them and that is , regardless of what one may think, how they work.
I will get the Series schematic up..I purposely have the one for 104.992 HFM/SFI-DIS engine, so as to have a accurate representation.

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A Dalton

The above statements are not correct, Arthur Dalton is correct. Its all to do with relative potential, the block would have to be connected to the negative terminal of the coil for it to be "earthed". The block is not earthed relative to the coil as it is in other ignition systems.
It cannot act as an electron sink, thats making it a capacitor!!

Thank You..
The tip off to all this thread is the coil does not have a single tower as a standard ignition that uses the block for ground. .. Waste Spark coils have dual towers, meaning that second tower is the retun path to the coil for circuit completion, vs using the engine block for circuit completion. It is an ISOLATION , SERIES CIRCUIT..and does not reference chassis ground at all.

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A Dalton