M-103 Head Gasket Mods - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

long-gone · #1 07-31-2009, 04:59 PM

Greetings to all, I'm newly registered but have been reading threads here for quite a while.

I'm doing the head on a 91 300E 2.6. I've come to learn there are a few variations of the gasket. The gasket I had was a Victor-Reinz which apparently had been redesigned with an extra line of rubber seal between the oil feed ports and the water jacket where it notoriously fails. It also appeared to have a darker, perhaps also modified gasket material. Long story short, I damaged the rubber seal line on the last (back) oil drain hole (also a notorious spot for leakage) so I ordered a new gasket from a local indie who gets me parts at a good price and can usually get them "next day". It was an exact match to the one I had, however, in shipping, it broke through the package and mangled the front corner tab where the OTHER notorious leak occurs on these cars. So I returned it and got another. This time it was the former style Victor-Reinz with no modification and of the lighter grey gasket material. It was the last individual gasket the warehouse had and apparently can't get individual gaskets anymore, only head sets (same as the MB dealer). So in desperation to get it worked on this weekend, I got the more expensive head set. This time it was an Erlinger. It too has no modification where the oil/water holes are and appears to have a different gasket material. I also thought the Erlinger's were supposed to have metal tabs added to the front extensions that meet the timing cover to help avoid gasket shrinkage. But this one has none. I think I've read something about some previous problems with Erlinger head gaskets on this model.

So, I guess my big question is, should I go ahead and use one of the last two gaskets, without the modification of added separation to the oil/water holes or should I hold out for one with that mod? And if there is no problem with the non-mod gaskets, which one would be recommended, the Victor, or the Erlinger?

Thanks for any comments or suggestions. I'll check back in later tonight

Hit Man X · #2 07-31-2009, 08:56 PM

I'd use a non damaged gasket over a damaged one... think about it for just a second...

You'll probably get 125-175k from the standard gasket before it decides to leak again, by that time you probably won't be in the car anymore and if you are the head will be worn enough to warrant a rebuild again then.

I REALLY hope you're doing your head while this is apart, if not you're wasting time. Replace all guides, replace VALVE SPRINGS, etc.

long-gone · #3 07-31-2009, 09:36 PM

Greetings Hit Man X
Quote: "I'd use a non damaged gasket over a damaged one..."

Definately! that's why I ordered a new gasket after accidentally scratching some of the sealing bead off the one I had. I sent the head to machine shop and had it milled and checked out. He put new exhaust guides in. He said the intakes were tight and the springs checked out okay. The springs are easy enough to do later if they weaken.

My dilemma here is wether I should use one of the new gaskets even though they don't have the modification of the extra sealing bead separating the oil feed and the rear water jacket. If the consensus is that it's okay to use one, then which brand would be recommended, the Victor-Reinz or the Erlinger.

I'm pretty meticulous but I think you're right though, with luck I probably wouldn't have to deal with it again for another 100K either way(it already has 230K and was virtually trouble free the last 100K)

More opinions welcome!

Hit Man X · #4 07-31-2009, 09:45 PM

Did your guy check open and closed seat pressure?

Springs can be well wasted by 100k (429/472/500 Cadillacs and Turbo Buicks for example), let alone 230k. I think I paid about $5/ea for mine from MB. There is NO way I would use springs that old in a rebuild, to skimp on $60 at this point is foolish. The guides are sub $2/ea... same with those, I'd just replace them all while the head is off and apart. The ones deemed "okay" could be on the low side of factory spec... not what I want.

Yes, I'd wait it out and get the latest style gasket... whether it be from Elring or Reinz. If you're in a pinch, just use whatever you have around. Both brands are fine.

Use new bolts too. Change the front main since you're in there.

ps2cho · #5 07-31-2009, 11:21 PM

Don't rush these things....Get the right gasket and do the valve guides + seals. If you leave the guides alone and they start to leak, you end up with your cats + precats getting clogged faster. That alone is a reason you should do it. You'll save money in the long run.

Hit Man X · #6 07-31-2009, 11:22 PM

We don't really need precats.

long-gone · #7 08-01-2009, 12:04 AM

Hi Ps2cho, I read your thread regarding your head/top engine overhaul. Nice job! I believe I learned in that thread (or another you contributed to) that the new head bolts (102mm) I got do not require washers, as well as some other small snafu's that were straightened out from reading them.

Don't worry guys, I'm not scrimping on anything unless I really feel it's unnecessary. I trust the machine shop guy, he's good. I see no necessity in replacing guides that are tight. tight is tight, right? Anyway, the car had a new gasket and head job from a dealer (a Toyota dealer) back in 2001, a few years before I bought it. It got a new chain, tensioner & guide rails as well as both valve guides. I just looked over the invoice and apparently it didn't get valve springs. But I'm not worried about it, like I said, they're easy to do in the car. It had about 114K at the time. I bought it at 119K. I got it from a long time friend, whose father, an eye surgeon, gave it to him and he didn't really want it so he sold it to me for the unbelievable price of $500! As mentioned, I've gotten over 100K out of it with nothing so much as ball joints, tie rods and a trans cooling hose. Even with the $2000 in parts I'm now putting in it, if it had to go to the scrap yard tomorrow it would owe me nothing.

Anyways, back to the gasket. Apparently it's a crap shoot which gasket you'll get off the shelf when you order one. Had I not gotten a modified gasket to begin with (and not scraped it) It would be in the car now and torqued down. I wouldn't know the difference. But I DO know now that there's a slightly modified version out there. I really want to get it done, it's been sitting for about 6 months now and my time to work on it is scarce. I just wanted to get some opinions about it.
Ps2cho, do you recall if your head gasket had an extra line of the reddish rubber sealant bead separating the oil feed from the rear water jacket by bolt hole #14?

Hit Man X · #8 08-01-2009, 12:24 AM

Yes, but why waste 4-6 hours having to install the springs later? The car is already six months off the road. I seriously doubt that the stock springs have the same seat pressures at new ones do, open and closed. Hell, spring pressures change depending on temperature too.

Same with the guides, ask which side of spec they're on... they're going to be on the low side of spec, hands down. $24 for ALL new guides (12) in parts is cheap as hell, it makes no sense to reuse any when the head is off... even if they're "okay" They still have wear.

Just spend the extra $100 at the most for the parts and wait for the updated gasket.

It's your car, do as you wish.

long-gone · #9 08-01-2009, 12:54 AM

I'd like to add that, I don't even know how long the Victor-Reinz M103 head gasket with the mentioned modification has been around, or for that matter, whether it has even proven to be beneficial. As mentioned it also appears to be made of a darker (perhaps improved as well?) material.
I attempted to contact Victor-Reinz (and apparently Dana corp.) and tried to get connected with a tech or find out whatever I could but I wasn't successful. I may try again.
Obviously improved is most often better, so I'd expect most observers would suggest using the modified item. But maybe I'm being too anal about it in a case like this where the improvement may or may not be significant or even matter given the already high milage.
Maybe someone here has some experience or knowledge about these particulars?

BTW the Erlinger gasket I mentioned that has additional metal tabs on the front extensions that meet the timing cover was seen in a tech article for M104 head gaskets and probably doesn't apply here. Sorry for any confusion.

pawoSD · #10 08-01-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hit Man X

Yes, but why waste 4-6 hours having to install the springs later? The car is already six months off the road. I seriously doubt that the stock springs have the same seat pressures at new ones do, open and closed. Hell, spring pressures change depending on temperature too.

Same with the guides, ask which side of spec they're on... they're going to be on the low side of spec, hands down. $24 for ALL new guides (12) in parts is cheap as hell, it makes no sense to reuse any when the head is off... even if they're "okay" They still have wear.

Just spend the extra $100 at the most for the parts and wait for the updated gasket.

It's your car, do as you wish.

Where are you finding guides for $2? I am seeing the cheapest ones at $5.50 apiece online....still only $66 or so.....but not $24....then add springs.......

long-gone · #11 08-01-2009, 02:10 AM

Hi Hit Man X, You're obviously a very thorough tech and I appreciate your comments and opinion very much. As I said, I trust the guy at the machine shop, he's very good. He a business man though too and I assume he wouldn't have hesitated to suggest replacing the intake guides and thus earning more for something he's half into already. They were cheap as you noted and I was fine with adding them. When he said they were "tight" I assumed he meant on the top side of spec. so I let it go. But, I guess I'll ask him to elaborate.

Valve springs were actually considered even though he said they were fine, but my best price on them was $115 (12x9 +ship). At nearly $2000 in parts, tools and machine work (about $400 over budget already), other bills to pay and the ease of installation in the car, it was an easy decision to allow it for later if needed.

I realize and acknowledge your advise is correct in practice and procedure. Anyone reading or learning from this thread should indeed be aware of that. I wouldn't want anyone to base their procedure on any, perhaps deficient, decisions they read here from me.
Circumstances may tend to incline or even dictate some to proceed in varied ways. I was just kind of hoping for some knowledge or enlightenment on the effectiveness of the mentioned head gasket modifications.

long-gone · #12 08-02-2009, 07:24 PM

"Erlinger"?! Don't know why I kept mangling the name like that! obviously I meant "Elring".

Isn't Erlinger a beer or something? maybe I need one.

Hit Man X · #13 08-03-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

Where are you finding guides for $2? I am seeing the cheapest ones at $5.50 apiece online....still only $66 or so.....but not $24....then add springs.......

Well, I wholesale parts so maybe that's why my pricing is a bit lower. But when I post I try to post the over-the-counter pricing on stuff. Most dealers give 25% off list pricing anyway at their parts counters.

Even at $100, it should not make or break a cylinder head R&R, sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by long-gone

Hi Hit Man X, You're obviously a very thorough tech and I appreciate your comments and opinion very much. As I said, I trust the guy at the machine shop, he's very good. He a business man though too and I assume he wouldn't have hesitated to suggest replacing the intake guides and thus earning more for something he's half into already. They were cheap as you noted and I was fine with adding them. When he said they were "tight" I assumed he meant on the top side of spec. so I let it go. But, I guess I'll ask him to elaborate.

Valve springs were actually considered even though he said they were fine, but my best price on them was $115 (12x9 +ship). At nearly $2000 in parts, tools and machine work (about $400 over budget already), other bills to pay and the ease of installation in the car, it was an easy decision to allow it for later if needed.

I realize and acknowledge your advise is correct in practice and procedure. Anyone reading or learning from this thread should indeed be aware of that. I wouldn't want anyone to base their procedure on any, perhaps deficient, decisions they read here from me.
Circumstances may tend to incline or even dictate some to proceed in varied ways. I was just kind of hoping for some knowledge or enlightenment on the effectiveness of the mentioned head gasket modifications.

I guess I'm just anal, I won't waste my time having to do something twice. I understand you can do them later, and that they're easy to do... it is just something I would not choose to do.

Anyway, keep us posted on whatever you choose to do with the head gasket itself.