Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:05 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
W123 tech specs req'd - wheelbase length

Dear All,

Does any one out there know the technical specifications in terms of a tolerance for a W123 sedan / saloon wheel base?

MBeige posted a great picture with the dimensions 2795 mm but I expect there is a +/- limit on this length. See:-

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=281036

I'm in the middle of adjusting the caster on my front suspension and I want to check that the dimension between the wheel centres are not getting too big.

I hope some one out there can help!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-23-2010, 07:53 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
I've found this but it doesn't have the tolerances:-

http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=189090#a_dimensions
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:04 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Answer

http://wikicars.org/en/Mercedes-Benz_W123
Production 1976-1985
Wheelbase Sedan: 2795 mm (110 in)
Coupé: 2710 mm (106.7 in)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W123
Mercedes-Benz W123
Manufacturer Daimler-Benz
Production 1976–1985
Total production: 2,696,915 built[1]
* 4-door: 2,397,514
* Coupé: 99,884
* Estate: 199,517

Assembly Sindelfingen, Germany

Predecessor Mercedes-Benz W115

Successor Mercedes-Benz W124
Class Executive car

Body style(s):

4-door saloon
2-door coupé
5-door estate

Engine(s):

2.0 L I4
2.2 L I4 Diesel
2.3 L I4
2.4 L I4 Diesel
2.5 L I6
2.8 L I6
3.0 L I5 Diesel
2.0 L I4 Diesel

Transmission(s):
3-speed automatic
4-speed automatic
4-speed manual
5-speed manual

Wheelbase Sedan: 2,795 mm (110.0 in)
Coupé: 2,710 mm (106.7 in)
Length Sedan: 4,724 mm (186.0 in)[2] (euro-spec bumpers)
Width Sedan: 1,784 mm (70.2 in)[2]
Height Sedan: 1,435 mm (56.5 in)[2]

Vehicles Mercedes-Benz E-Class



http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/mercedes/7543/view/mercedes_benz_240d_lwb_w123_1977/

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/mercedes/5074/view/mercedes_benz_240d_lange_1974/

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/mercedes/7570/view/mercedes_benz_280ce_c123_1977/

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/mercedes/7566/view/mercedes_benz_280e_w123_1977/

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/mercedes/13608/view/mercedes_w123/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-24-2010, 01:53 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Thanks but

Great information but surely Mercedes gave a tolerance for these wheel base lengths?

I mean when you adjust the camber or the caster on the front suspension (or on the rear for that matter) you move the centre of the wheel to a different position - thus not all W123s sedans will have a wheel base of exactly 2795 mm - it will be something like 2795 mm +/- say 15 mm for example.

Does anyone know this tolerance?
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Last edited by Stretch; 07-24-2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Forgot a question mark
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:54 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
Great information but surely Mercedes gave a tolerance for these wheel base lengths?

I mean when you adjust the camber or the caster on the front suspension (or on the rear for that matter) you move the centre of the wheel to a different position - thus not all W123s sedans will have a wheel base of exactly 2795 mm - it will be something like 2795 mm +/- say 15 mm for example.

Does anyone know this tolerance?
That is subscription data...
EXAMPLES:

http://www.hunter.com/alignment/?gclid=CMjL57vphKMCFRMeDQodIQ0yZQ

http://www.teambearusa.com/news/index.cfm?GroupID=1&Archive=1

Blackhawk
http://www.blackhawkcr.com/vehicle-dimension-data.asp

Mitchell Vehicle Dimensions Manual
https://www.mitchell.com/mitch/products/product.asp?pf_id=29

http://www.alignmentspecs.com/

http://www.autodata.ltd.uk/product.asp?prod=Wheel_Alignment_Data_2010
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:26 AM
MBeige's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
Great information but surely Mercedes gave a tolerance for these wheel base lengths?

I mean when you adjust the camber or the caster on the front suspension (or on the rear for that matter) you move the centre of the wheel to a different position - thus not all W123s sedans will have a wheel base of exactly 2795 mm - it will be something like 2795 mm +/- say 15 mm for example.

Does anyone know this tolerance?
It's probably a few cm's at most.

The caster calls for probably a 1.5 degree range. I doubt the front wheel moves forward that much.

Some dimension figures are also for Euro spec models with smaller bumpers. US dimensions are longer due to the larger US bumpers.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:23 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBeige View Post
It's probably a few cm's at most.

The caster calls for probably a 1.5 degree range. I doubt the front wheel moves forward that much.

Some dimension figures are also for Euro spec models with smaller bumpers. US dimensions are longer due to the larger US bumpers.
Yeah I thought so. That's why I put +/- 15mm as an example... there must be a tolerance some where for normal use - in other words for adjustments - and not accident damage.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:49 AM
MBeige's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,746
You don't measure caster by the wheelbase, you measure it depending on the caster angle. From there the wheelbase difference is a secondary piece of info.

Once you've adjusted them properly, then use that secondary info to compare, but don't use it as a baseline reference point.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-25-2010, 04:32 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBeige View Post
You don't measure caster by the wheelbase, you measure it depending on the caster angle. From there the wheelbase difference is a secondary piece of info.

Once you've adjusted them properly, then use that secondary info to compare, but don't use it as a baseline reference point.
I know - I'm measuring it by measuring camber when the wheel has been turned by 20 degrees. This is standard practice.

My only problem is that I'm probably trying to adjust to an incorrect value of caster as the wheel base is getting too long. I'm now at 2810 instead of 2795. BUT even so the 2795 value must have a tolerance on it.

I'm asking for the correct value of caster here

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=281559
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Last edited by Stretch; 07-25-2010 at 04:33 AM. Reason: Spelling again
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:04 AM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
castor

Hope this helps army !! I dont know where its from, but it does give the specs.

Good Luck !!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf sf-alignment.pdf (37.0 KB, 223 views)
__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:48 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Thanks fore the PDF layback - I'd already found it - it does give a caster specification but I'm unsure if it is the value for straight ahead with the MB special tool - OR - for the 20 degree wheel lock method (this has a smaller number).

I think I'm going to have to make a guess at the setting. I'm at 7.6 degrees of caster (measured by 20 degree wheel lock method) but the wheel base is still longer than the 2795 prescribed length...

Hmmmm
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:20 AM
Gilly's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Evansville WI
Posts: 9,616
I HAD a collection of TDM's (Technical Data Manuals) and those things list just about any dimension or spec a person would need. I have ONE left which is a 1975, which of course pre-dates the 123 chassis, but figured it wouldn't hurt to look to see if they listed some general spec on variation in the wheelbase. They list the wheelbase dimension as being "R" (they have various length checks, especially diagonal ones, for checking after an accident I'd assume), but no where do they list any spec for "R" or a variation. In an introductory section they do list the wheelbases for the various chassis, with no other info, and nothing in section 40, which is rims and tires, which is where they list all the chassis specs.
I would also assume it should be within a few mm's. If the frame is straight and control arms and trailing arms not damaged, I don't know why it wouldn't be. You are concerned about the caster angle, which is good, but if the frame is straight, I don't know why one side would be seriously different than the other.
I don't know what you have available that you are checking this with, but a modern alignment machine will give the thrust angle, once you get everything aligned, see what the thrust angle is, if everything is in spec and the thrust angle near zero, then i don't know if I'd agonize over a difference in wheelbase.
Gilly
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:48 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
OK thanks - I've got the caster to be within 0.3 degrees of each other. And the wheel base length is the same on each side.

I've made other measurements to check the integrity of the chassis - and I'm happy that everything is as straight as it should be.

I think I'll reduce the caster a little bit to bring the wheel base a little closer to 2795 and then call it a day. I'm about to do a 12 hour drive next week so I'll have plenty of time to be critical of my decision!
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:36 AM
MBeige's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,746
You would want a higher caster - the straight measurement on mine when I had an alignment was around 8.3 deg. To give you a better picture, the wheel was closer to the front edge of the wheel well arch than previously, where the caster was 6.x degrees.

This is how mine is right now after alignment.



It might not be too obvious here, but if you compare mine (yellow/beige w123) to the others the positioning of my wheel is not as it was above (this was prior to the alignment). Other w123s beside me had better caster, their front wheels were more forward in the wheel well than mine.

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Thanks MBeige there is indeed a great difference before and after...

If I can get the rest of the car finished I'll give it a quick test drive first before reducing what I've got. I'm now practiced enough at replacing UCA and LCA bushings anyway if I've got it really wrong!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page