98 C280-starting probs

[MarkC]

Looked at a 98 C280 with about 74K miles today (buying), and started it and let it fully warmed up. Shut it down and then tried to start it again and two times in a row it would only turn over two times then it went dead (don't remember if the lights in the dash went out or not). On the third try, it started fine and we took it for a long test drive (to charge what we suspected was a weak battery-sitting for a while at a car dealer). Return, and tried restarting it after turning it off (test the battery) and several times it would crank just two times and then dead. After a few tries, it did crank until it starts (about 3 turns). sometimes normal, other times just two cranks and it's dead until I try again. It has a MB battery, so I suspect it may be the original (most buy the aftermarket because of price I guess), if so perhaps it's just old and weak. However, I don't know if there are any inherent or common probs with sensors or starters that would give the same symptoms when the engine compartment gets hot which is the main question I have here.

Any ideas?
TIA MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

when you start it, do you allow it to start its self by releasing the key, or do you dold the key in the crank position? if you are releasing it and allowing it to auto crank, try holding the key in the crank position and see if it doesn't then start, if it does, the flywheel and starter gear need to be lubed, sounds wierd i know, but i have seen many with that same problem, and once lubed they were fine. let us know what you find

I just held the key until it started. On the several times where it only turned over twice and was dead I was also holding it in the crank position. Think it's likely the battery?
MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

no, that is what i was saying, if you hold the key in the start position and it starts, the flywheel ring gear and starer drive need to be lubed. do you hear squeaking while cranking?

I don't recall hearing squeaking. I guess that this car is one you just momentarily turn the key to the start position then let off, and then the starter stays engaged until the engine starts? Is it NOT suppose to start when holding the key in the start position?
MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

it is called tip start, what i am telling you is exactly what you said, it is the type where you momentatilly turn the key and it is supposed to start on it's own, but since the starter ring gear and the starter drive need to be lubricated, it is not able to do that on it's own, that is why you have to get someone qualified enough to lube the starter drive and driven gears. here is a document from mercedes describing the problem

I never tried the 'tip start', only held the key in the start position until it would start or die after two cranks (key continually held in start position).

So if the starter needs grease then it would prevent the car from staring even IF you continually hold the key in the start position?
MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

no, only if you use the tipstart look at the picture and tell me which one looks like your key

The second key looks closest.

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

well then you definately have tip start, you need to remove the starter and get it lubed, and your problem will go away. be sure to use the paste lube that was shown in the document i posted

So if the engine will NOT START even if I continually HOLD the key in the START POSITION it means the starter needs to be lubed?

I'm clarify this because you seem to be under the impression that I was using the tip start method AND when the car failed to start using tip start method, I then continually held the key in the start position which would start the car (pointing to the starter needed to be lubed).

But this is not what is happening.

The problem I'm having is when I continually HOLD the key in the START positions and it does NOT start, only turns over twice and the starter stops working (while the key is in the start position).


Tip start--->Car starts? = YES ---> All is OK= no further diagnosis.

Tip start--->car starts? = NO---> NEXT to check: Hold key until start--->car starts? = YES --->Lube starter.

My situation:

Hold key in start position until start--->car starts? = YES --->All is OK

Hold Key in start position until start--->car starts? = NO ---> try again until it starts.

MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by MarkC

So if the starter needs grease then it would prevent the car from staring even IF you continually hold the key in the start position?
MarkC

Originally Posted by carson356

no, only if you use the tipstart look at the picture and tell me which one looks like your key

Ok then. Since the problem I am having is that the engine will NOT start even while continually HOLDING the key in the start position, then according to your answer ("no") then the problem must not be related to the starter needing lube.

MarkC

soory i thought youwere saying iy would start when held, so it will start and run for a second then die? or just crank a little and stop without the engine starting even for a few seconds? mark i deleted all the previous messages i left, i was completely wrong and i am sorry for wasting your time, i believe you will be ok once you install a new battery, i would eithe go with mercedes or interstate, try to stay away from chep ones, they will cause problems with the cars electrical systems. sorry again for the wrong information.

[MarkC]

Here’s some more details:

Car has been at a dealer for several months.

We started it today, the engine did not turn over as quickly as one would expect, but it started.

It idles for a while, then we shut it off.

Wife goes to start it, it cranks twice and the starter stops working.

Turns off the key, and tries again, same results.

On the third attempt, the engine starts, and we take it for a 20 minute highway drive.

Upon our return, we start and shut off the car several times in a row to see if the same problem would occur which it did.

On several occasions It would only turn over twice and that is it, dead. However, it would also start on some tries too.

I have a suspicion that it's the battery (though not an accurate indicator, seeing an original MB battery could very well mean that it is the original, as I suspect an owner would probably buy a less costly alternative brand), but wanted to check on other possible inherent, or common problems that would also cause the same symptoms. I do want to thank you for bring that starter lube issue to my attention. lots of good info here.

MarkC

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

soory i thought youwere saying iy would start when held, so it will start and run for a second then die? or just crank a little and stop without the engine starting even for a few seconds? mark i deleted all the previous messages i left, i was completely wrong and i am sorry for wasting your time, i believe you will be ok once you install a new battery, i would eithe go with mercedes or interstate, try to stay away from chep ones, they will cause problems with the cars electrical systems. sorry again for the wrong information.

No need to apologize and you were not wasting my time, as I'm the one here with the questions. Your willingness to help is greatly appreciated Plus, I would have never known about the starter-needs-grease issue if you hadn't mentioned it here. I'll give the car another look and find out how much a new MB or Interstate brand battery will cost.

Thanks,
MarkC

[Ethan]

I don't think it is a bad battery- actually the battery sounds strong.
Considering the battery runs the REST - HVAC function on these cars and Mercedes had their ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE program for replacing batteries it is not unusual to find MB marked batteries years from car purchase date.

I am not sure what you mean when you say it " WOULD TURN OVER TWO TIMES "

You need a list of the work the dealer has done on the car to try to fix it.
It could be anything from wrongly gaped spark plugs and low compression in the cylinders to a fault in fuel injection system or missing starter mounting bolts.

Hopefuly someone on this list will have diagnosed the same problem on a C280 and will dial you in further.

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by Ethan

I don't think it is a bad battery- actually the battery sounds strong.
Considering the battery runs the REST - HVAC function on these cars and Mercedes had their ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE program for replacing batteries it is not unusual to find MB marked batteries years from car purchase date.

I am not sure what you mean when you say it " WOULD TURN OVER TWO TIMES "

You need a list of the work the dealer has done on the car to try to fix it.
It could be anything from wrongly gaped spark plugs and low compression in the cylinders to a fault in fuel injection system or missing starter mounting bolts.

Hopefuly someone on this list will have diagnosed the same problem on a C280 and will dial you in further.

What I mean when I wrote that it "would only turn over two times" is that when I turned the key to the start position and held it there, the starter would engage and turn the engine over two revolutions and then the starter would stop turning the engine over (key still held in the start position) as if the battery died and of course the engine did not start. However, try it again, and if the engine turned over three revolutions, it would start.

I repeated this several times, turning off the engine when it did start, and retrying starting if it didn't start. It was intermittent, I repeated the starting proccess several times (20?) with it starting and with it not starting.

There is no list of work, as it's at a used car dealer for sale (there for several months, perhaps as long as 6 months or so). The sales person expectedly suggested the battery (expectedly because of simple and relative low cost to correct the symptom).

MarkC

so does the battery recieve a charge before it will start again? or does it just set then it will start,if it just sets then the battery likely isn't at fault, as ethan said, it still could be the starter lube lube issue i guess, it may be that i havent seen one as bad as this, and even holding it in the start position will not do it,

[MarkC]

Originally Posted by carson356

so does the battery recieve a charge before it will start again? or does it just set then it will start,if it just sets then the battery likely isn't at fault, as ethan said, it still could be the starter lube lube issue i guess, it may be that i havent seen one as bad as this, and even holding it in the start position will not do it,

The battery does not receive a charge. I restarted, or attempted to restart the car about 20 times in about a 10 minute time frame. It would always start IF the starter turned the engine over more than two revolutions. Other times, the starter would turn the engine over two revolutions and then stop working (as if power was cut...Did seem like it ran out of energy). I immediately would try again, and it did the same a few more times. I kept trying and then it would start. Let it idle for a minute, shut it down and immediately do another restart. Sometimes it would restart right away as normal, others, just spin the engine over two revolutions and then the starter would stop working.

When it would not restart, the closest I can compare is the sensation that the engine hydro locked at the beginning of the third engine revolution as the starter abruptly stopped spinning the engine (again, the key continually held in the start position). One may suspect that perhaps (a long shot) that one cylinder has more pressure on the compression stroke...Perhaps a leaking head gasket with coolant being drawn in?...However the engine runs very smooth with great power on the highway. Perhaps by coincidence, some of the times it would not start, I had the door open (interior light on, power drain?) however, there were times it would not start when the doors were closed.

Some things I suspected:
Damaged starter (internal magnet damage etc) not having enough torque to turn the engine when there happen to be two cylinders near their compression strokes, putting more load on the weak starter.

Or, weak battery causing the same above, where the starter is not getting enough power to overcome times when the engine needs to be spun when two cylinders are near their compression stroke.

The starter needing lubing is something I didn’t know about and could be the prob. I do recall seeing the tach jump to 2000rpms when the starter stopped (while key held in the start position).

carson356, could you post that link again to the starter lube bulletin?
Thanks,
MarkC

Marc, here is the bullitin again, i have also put in most of the info for removing the starter