Going back to the beginning of this thread, which reffered to the cost of and frequency of maintaining a used, or new MB in good working conditions, I've noticed that the cons are not too far from the truth. I recently purchased a 1994 SL500 with 88000, which I really love and always wanted to have. It is understandable that I was not there to see the treatment that the too previous owners gave to this beautiful machine. And maybe bad maintenance could explain the transmission's rare, exporadic shift malfunction and the deteriorated catalytic converter that I recently replaced. What this can not explain, is the remote system malfunction, the convertible top not working due to a faulty hydraulic system, the trunk lid coming down on you, because it just does not hold its ground, the windshield wiper stopping and going as if it was alive, the outside temperature gauge not working and other problems that do not to my knowledge and understanding have anything to do with bad maintenance. This is an automobile that had a list price of $102,000, and if am not mistaken it is probably the most expensive SL500 ever sold by Mercedes Benz. (I say this because I went in the model's history site and that's what it showed as far as R129 model price history). Honestly, I do not want to give the impression that I'm resenting to have made this purchase, but it does not make any sense that such an expensive well designed machine should be experiencing these types of troubles with only 88,000 miles, which as far as an MB is concern, it is still a very low mileage. I will keep learning and DIY, until I make it better.I think that the quality is not 100% as it should be, after all am talking about a Mercedes Benz,a top of the line excellently built machinery, not to be compared with any other.

Suginami,
as a former high-school teacher I thankyou for correcting my grammar. but as you stated in your post : I am infact referring to neither all the mercedes automobiles nor the company mercedes. I'm merely referring to my own "single" car as a "single" owner.
At this point I'd rather not discuss this any further however your post provided a good laugh due to the fact that the 15 thousand hits that post has and with almost 350 replies, you're the only one who has totally lost touch of the original topic the post is intented to discuss and you're concerning yourself with the grammar of the whole issue.
every heard of "thinking outside the box" ?
good luck to you. and i hope you've progressed further than high school. as for your disclaimer.. are you suggesting that a native speaker of english with no former education would have more command over the grammar versus a non-native english with a phD in english literature ?. if so... i rest my case.

__________________
Whether you think you can or cannot, Either way you're right!. by Henry Ford.

Well,

All I can say is that you missed the point of the post. It was made in jest. Tongue in cheek. A little bit of sarcasm. Comic relief. Whatever you want to call it.

Let's just leave it alone so we don't walk away with bad feelings.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Suginami :
no offenze tekken
plus we're here for the tech. talk so let's leave the grammar out of this !!

__________________
Whether you think you can or cannot, Either way you're right!. by Henry Ford.

Dear Suginami,

Your title looks O.K. at first glance, but when you questioned your grammar, I decided to analyze your title:

"Is merecedes too troublesome?"

Here are a few thoughts that come into mind:
1. Is - singular, but you have merecedes plural - therefore there is a conflict here.
2. merecedes is plural
3. merecedes is spelled incorrectly
4. Mercedes is a name therefore the first letter should be capitalized.

The title should say "Are Mercedes too troublesome?"

Personally I don't care about grammar, especially if it's your second language. But if you were born and raised in the USA, then I probably would expect more, although I would not hold it against anyone.

Now if you're talking about handwriting...mine is TERRIBLE (haha). When I went to college I noticed most Americans (especially males) have bad handwriting. Foreigners (male and female) and female Americans have very nice handwriting.

Sincerely,

jrmd01@yahoo.com

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JR
1986 Gold 300E 4Dr automatic

I think it should be:
Are Mercedes's too troublesome ?

__________________
2007 C 230 Sport.

Ummm...you might want to look at the original post. Suginami did not start this thread. And the comment about English as a second language was unnecessary.

__________________
2002 500SL(Black/Black)
1992 300SE(Black/Black)
1992 190E 2.3(White/Navy)
1999 VW Jetta TDI(Pearl Green)
1986 SAAB 900 Base 3 door(White)
1983 Porsche 911SC(Chiffon)
1977 VW Scirocco(DiamondSilver)

Dear EC93SE;

You are absolutely correct. I didn't look at the original post. I was just answering Suginami's question with the assumption that he started the thread.

You are misunderstanding my comment about English as a Second Language (ESL). Every year I take mulitiple trips to international countries. When I'm abroad, it is always a pleasure to meet anyone who can speak/write any amount of English. I could care less about whether or not their grammar is correct.

I hope I cleard up my statement. I apologize if you (or anyone) still feels offended.

__________________
JR
1986 Gold 300E 4Dr automatic

Ive had several Honda's.
And Acura's.
No lexus.
One Mercedes. My ML320 has experienced 5 fold the problems of the Honda.s. Is it status ? Why ?

__________________
Steve Danville
what i did myself.
CPS
rear shocks
MAS x 3.
SparkPlugs (twice)
Fuel pump & Filter
Window switch
replaced both failed horns with Honda horns.
Cleaned ERG Tube
Oil changes
Oil consumption Fix
Brake Pads
A/C Recharge
Anti-Freeze change X 2.
Front Shocks. Monroe. $90
Mercedes Warrenty Work:
Harmonic balancer,power steering clamp. Cat converters.Drive Shaft Bearing.s
Replaced Outer Lower Tie Rods and front lower ball joints at 156,000 miles

It depends on what you're looking for.

I had a coffee yesterday witha friend with a 1991 ES250 Lexus. Very nice car when new. He's owned it since new, and has taken care of it. It has only 146,000km's on it.

It runs great, and has had few repairs. Reliable? You bet!

However, compared to my 1990 190E with over 2x as much mileage, here's the difference:

The Lexus' doors are starting to sag. The frameless windows leak air like crazy. My 190E's doors slam shut with precision like the day the car was new.

The Lexus' seats are sagging badly and all the interior bits are faded and old looking. My 190E's interior is in great shape.

The Lexus' paint is faded and looking pretty tired. My 190E's paint shines and many people think the car is 2-3 years old, not nearly 15.

The Lexus has been reliable, but is visibly worn and getting very tired. Our rough roads have taken their toll on this car. It rattles quite a bit now (the 190E does not).

So, what's the diff? The Mercedes-Benz cars may have a spotty repair record (the ML is the worst of the non-S-Class cars...) but time may be on it's side. I can't speak to the newest models, but in my MB experience, they age better than just about anything else on the road.

If your priority is 5-7 years of reliable motoring and you can live with the car aging rapidly past that point, then most any luxury make will work very well for you. Lots of people feel this way, and they have lots of great cars to choose from. If you want a car that feels great at 15 years old, you're stuck picking between various MB models...

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

You wrote: "If your priority is 5-7 years of reliable motoring and you can live with the car aging rapidly past that point, then most any luxury make will work very well for you. Lots of people feel this way, and they have lots of great cars to choose from. If you want a car that feels great at 15 years old, you're stuck picking between various MB models..."

John....I think many here might say you are "preaching to the choir" given your glowing reviews in a MB owners forum, and that may be true to a point, but I must say I have to agree with all that you say! The only thing that you neglect to say about the 15 year-old MB is the cost of keeping it maintained. It "ain't" cheap! Is it worth it? That all depend's on one's outlook on life. If you are one to value a car that retains it's resale AND protects your life (literally) at the same time, then there is no choice that will do both better than MB....period.

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1996 SL320 97K miles
1996 C220 130k miles
1992 500SEL 170k miles <---sold
1986 300E 216k miles <---sold

Compare the cost of keeping a 15 year old MB on the road with the cost of buying a new replacement. However, after 15 years of faithful service, buying a new car is not insane.

However, take our nearly 15 year old 190E. It costs a couple thou a year to keep in good shape. The AC blows cold, everything works, and it's in good tune. If I were to buy a new car, I'd be staring a car payment of $900 a month in the face. Heck, I've had the C230 paid off for some time now, and I'm still reeling from all the money I paid for it. Probably my last brand new Benz.

A replacement for the 190E is a new C320. They run about $55,000CDN. A three year old C320 sells right now for about $30K. That's about $8333 a year in depreciation for the first three years. Heck, I could practically rebuild the 190E every year with a budget like that! However, the C320 is a much nicer car in many ways, and you only live once, so I understand the lust for a new car. I give in once in a while myself. However, I know that the high depreciation cost of the C230 will make more sense after it's logged 15 years of service.

Without being MB biased, I really appreciate Lexus cars. They are well made, run perfectly day in and out, and offer superb dealer service. However, I find that the LS series seem to hold up well, but "lesser" models don't keep their "shine" as long. With MB, the 190E and C-Class cars were smaller and offered with less equipement, but built to the same high standard.

The Lexus ES300 is a nice car. Many people like the FWD 'cause it's "safer" feeling to them. The engine is smooth and refined. The car is hushed inside. The stereo is great, better than anything that made it's way into a Mercedes. They're great cars that hold their value and have an excellent reputation and carry a great deal of prestige.

However, as time wears on, the cars really start to sag. As 10 years comes on, they are just plain old. But, hey, 10 good years out of a nice car is great! How many people expect more? Well, we just happen to be a bunch here, but in the "Real" world, people are bowled over with 10 years of reliable service.

Keep in mind too that in 1991, a 190E 2.6 was about $50K in Canada, and that ES300 was only $32K. The Benz should have been better, and it turns out that it was...

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

I was surprised to come across the link below last week. While it is in French, the graphs are readable in all languages. The curves represent the number of breakdowns per 1000 vehicles per year. A breakdown means the TCS had to be called out. (The TCS is the Swiss equivalent of the AAA or AA.) While the data ends in 1999, the message is clear - over the period represented, breakdowns increased by 20% on average across all makes.

The upper graph is for makes with above average breakdown rates, and the lower one for the below-average (better) breakdown rates. The most spectacular decline is by Opel. Mercedes was the most reliable make in 1986, but has declined significantly since then, remaining better than average.

http://www.tcs.ch/tcs.html?/webtcs/TCSPubli.nsf/(DocByID)/(BE9473ADD4D4B0A4C12569DC0057781B)!OpenDocument&language=fr

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1990 500SL 65k km - until May 11 2004
2004 E320 4-Matic wagon
2004 CLK500 Cabrio from May 11 2004

John.....I love the way you put things...I'm serious. You wrote:

"However, take our nearly 15 year old 190E. It costs a couple thou a year to keep in good shape. The AC blows cold, everything works, and it's in good tune."

Let's take it one step further. How long do you keep this up? When does it stop? My '86 300E (now at 18 years old) is a fabulous car with now 205K miles on it. The engine seems as strong as the day it was built and uses no oil at all. The paint is almost showroom condition and people who don't know MB think is nearly new. But, it's "book" value is somewhere in the area of $4000 US, and I am looking at some hefty maintenence this year in the neighborhood of $1200 (again, USD) or so for both mufflers and blower motor replacement. When does spending 30% of book value in a given year begin to give diminishing returns? Or is this a MB owner's thing where economics (or other opinions for that matter) have no place? Just curious on your thoughts. Do you think that keeping a car running in pristine condition is model-dependant (ie: S-class should be kept going longer than C-class) or is it something other than pure dollars and cents?

Interesting concept/thread going here.

__________________
1996 SL320 97K miles
1996 C220 130k miles
1992 500SEL 170k miles <---sold
1986 300E 216k miles <---sold

Maybe I can answer for John.

I know that the most often used method in determining when to keep or give up on a car is when the cost of maintaining / repairing it is greater than its blue book value, but this method has never made sense to me for two reasons:

1. cars are a depreciating asset.
2. maintenance / repairs are low on the list of the expenses of car ownership as described by Intellichoice. Depreciation is by far the most expensive component of car ownership, far outweighing any other measure. Depreciation is more than the costs of insurance, registration, fuel, maintenance, and repairs. If you go out and buy a new MB, you're going to spend somewhere between $47k and $50k USD. The average car depreciates by 50% every four years. At a $50k purchase price, in four years you will have spent $25,000 in depreciation cost.

This is where the cost of maintaining a car with little value comes into play. Which is more expensive? Spending a few thousand dollars maintaining a $4,000 car, or spending $25,000 over a four year period on a car that is continuing to very rapidly drop in value.

Your 300E is worth $4,000 now, and four years later will probably worth nearly the same amount. It is probably completely depreciated.

In another four years, the $25,000 Mercedes will be worth $12,500. You will have spent $37,500 on depreciation alone, not counting the significantly higher car registration.

How many repairs can you make on your Mercedes in the next 8 years that will total $37,500?

Heck, you could shoehorn in a brand new AMG 6.0 liter M119 400+hp monster of an engine for around $20K, and still have $17,500 to spare.

Which makes more sense?

Keep your 300E on the road and keep laughing all the way to the bank.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".