A price to pay for alternative fuels by BRUCE HENDERSON - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

NC Benz · #16 06-11-2007, 04:22 PM

From the best of my knowledge the Diesel was invented to run on oil.... peanut oil if I remember correctly. And a number of people seem to be running with oil just fine thank you.

Sooooooo using your logic... we should not experiment with alternative fuels because big ol' government EPA says so.

Using your logic we would never of had items like Penicillin, the Microwave Oven, Velcro and such.

Do you expect people to do what exactly? Wait until the government says it is OK?????

And you welcome high fuel prices...... well isnt that precious! All of this coming from someone that has removed their EGR and injects methanol???? POT KETTLE BLACK perhaps??? And I dont think the MVB engine was designed to be run on methanol injection. But that is just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Vegetable oil from Costco is for human cooking and consumption, not burning in an internal combustion engine. The EPA has not cleared it to be used as fuel, it is not taxed to be used as fuel, and MB's engines were not made to use it as fuel.

So what if he was doing it to "lessen his dependency on foreign oil"? There are plenty of stations in S.C. that sell biodiesel, they even have a plant that manufactures it! I'll summarize it with this quote:

#17 06-11-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Benz

From the best of my knowledge the Diesel was invented to run on oil.... peanut oil if I remember correctly. And a number of people seem to be running with oil just fine thank you.

The original diesel engine was designed to run on coal dust. Let's see you convert your engine to run on that.

MB's engine was not designed to run on peanut oil, their engineers made it to run on #1 & #2 diesel fuel. Just look on your fuel tank door or owners manual and show me where it says "Diesel or Vegetable Oil". Just because it can does not mean it should.

Biodiesel, as defined in D 6751, is registered with the US EPA as a fuel and a fuel additive under Section 211(b) of the Clean Air Act. When MB and the EPA approve SVO and WVO to be used on public roads, I'll be ready to embrace it with open arms.

Heck, even I am taking a risk to use biodiesel. I use B20 while MB has only approved B5 fuel.

dwoloz · #18 06-11-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Benz

Guess I wont be putting any stickers on my car!

The stickers are a terrible idea in my opinion

I bought my 240D with a conversion already installed and stickers all over it.

I feel like this needlessly targets the vehicle. I for one don't need to advertise the fact that I'm running an alternative fuel.

I parked my car on a quiet residential street one day and came back to find FOUR individual parking tickets all given within a 5 minute time span. One for covered VIN (it wasn't covered), one for parking more than 28 inches away from the curb (I wasn't), one for no front license plate (no one has a front license plate around here) and one for parking within X feet from a fire hydrant (I wasn't). All tickets except maybe the front license plate were complete bull**** so I am left only to believe that because the officer saw the stickers advertising the use of vegetable oil, this person though they would stick it to me and put in my place but ticketing the hell out of me.

Just my 2 cents

#19 06-11-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by probear

By that statement, then electric cars should also be taxed, along with bicycles.
Yes, bicycles....they use the road, and are used for transportation. I've always felt that they should also have tags, same as any other vehicle on public roads.

I also think that HOV lane rules either need to be revised or eliminated. The law should state, any vehicle with two or more licensed drivers and just not two occupants. Toting a three year old around does not eliminate another vehicle on the road, nor does carrying an unlicensed driver.

Ad absurdium. Tax and license bicycles? For what purpose? Bicycles do not cause wear and tear on paved roads, nor do they create congestion. Motorcycles, on the other hand, do depreciate roads and are licensed and taxed as such through registration and fuel taxes.

From what I have read, HOV lane rules actually exacerbate congestion.

Amazing, but they do seem to make congestion worse.

The real solution to charge for road use in the fairest possible manner is to make every road a toll road. However, government inertia will never allow this

because if you do that, you gotta repeal fuel taxes. If you believe that fuel tax revenue is used only for road construction and is not siphoned off elsewhere,

then I've got some oceanfront property for sale in Arizona that you should look at.

probear · #20 06-11-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F18

Interesting.....the quote in the article is "making sure the playing field is level".
How? The government wants everyone to think they have a handle on this new emerging alternative stuff.....but there will never be enough manpower to police everything. So they do the next best thing and go after the guy with the "Red Flag" on his vehicle. The sticker declaring his independance!
The guy meant well....trying to post his commitment and promoting alternative fuel. As my dad said to me back in the early 70's " if you think your man enough to try to create change then you better be man enough to face the consequences alone if need be".

When it all washes out ie. hybrid, veggie oil, electric, ethanol..... the government will just level a Flat Tax on every vehicle that you have registered.......it won't matter if you drive 1 mile or 50K a year or what source of power you use. The money has to come from somewhere for road & bridge repair and transportation programs.

Wouldn't it be better to just tax the driver? After all, one driver can only put one vehicle on the road at a time.

probear · #21 06-11-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhills0146

Ad absurdium. Tax and license bicycles? For what purpose? Bicycles do not cause wear and tear on paved roads, nor do they create congestion. Motorcycles, on the other hand, do depreciate roads and are licensed and taxed as such through registration and fuel taxes.

It's not a matter of wear and tear, it's a matter of existence. They use the road, they should have to pay. As to the tag, since they use the road, their should be a method of accountability, same as a car. Also, if you'll notice, there are a number of counties in metro Atlanta that are spending money on bicycle lanes

. Gwinnett county is one of them. So, why shouldn't bicycles pay to ride on roads? :shrug:

jap · #22 06-11-2007, 05:43 PM

I heard this story on Rush Limbaugh today. Thought about calling in and telling him about the WVO stuff -- and agreeing with his assessment.

bill murrow · #23 06-11-2007, 06:02 PM

I blend my WVO with RUG. I wonder how that would sit with the law? I pay as much road tax as a hybrid and don't get any tax breaks.

Certainly I wouldn't advertise that fact with a bumper sticker. I love those guys that run around in their pick ups with Budweiser bumper stickers.

Cheers,

Bill

F18 · #24 06-11-2007, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by probear

Wouldn't it be better to just tax the driver? After all, one driver can only put one vehicle on the road at a time.

Yep! But since when has the government had a tax program make that much sense? May be a flat tax per vehicle would force people to cull down the motor pool to the one that is the most efficient as a daily driver or put the others in moth balls until they take a seasonal registration out so they can attend the summer cruise nights with the fun/hobby car when the weather is good. Plus would you tax little Johny when he turns 16 even though he drives the family SUV?

Right now it just seems we are already paying tax on the tax.
In Massachusetts we of course pay the inital sales tax on the vehicle, and registration fees, then renewel registration fees every two years, vehicle excise tax every year, Federal tax on a gallon of fuel, State tax on a gallon of fuel, tax on a new set of tires and hazard disposal fee on old tires. To me a Fee is the same as a TAX.......and I would probably welcome a set flat tax on a vehicle instead of all the BS

riethoven · #25 06-11-2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwoloz

The stickers are a terrible idea in my opinion

I bought my 240D with a conversion already installed and stickers all over it.

I feel like this needlessly targets the vehicle. I for one don't need to advertise the fact that I'm running an alternative fuel.

I parked my car on a quiet residential street one day and came back to find FOUR individual parking tickets all given within a 5 minute time span. One for covered VIN (it wasn't covered), one for parking more than 28 inches away from the curb (I wasn't), one for no front license plate (no one has a front license plate around here) and one for parking within X feet from a fire hydrant (I wasn't). All tickets except maybe the front license plate were complete bull**** so I am left only to believe that because the officer saw the stickers advertising the use of vegetable oil, this person though they would stick it to me and put in my place but ticketing the hell out of me.

Just my 2 cents

"Shhh, be vewy vewy quiet, I am buning veggie." Elmer Fudd

If I ever get to the point of doing Biodiesel, the last thing I would have on my car is any indication of it. I actually intend to take the rear hatch badges off of the 1987 because they are just stuck on. The dead giveaway is the smell. Diesel and Chinese food just smell different.

I have heard that in NY, you don't even want to approach the state. First they will shut you down for making bio in a place where it is not supposed to be made, then they will fine the hell out of you, and tell the feds.

RNCarl · #26 06-11-2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

The original diesel engine was designed to run on coal dust. Let's see you convert your engine to run on that.

MB's engine was not designed to run on peanut oil, their engineers made it to run on #1 & #2 diesel fuel. Just look on your fuel tank door or owners manual and show me where it says "Diesel or Vegetable Oil". Just because it can does not mean it should.

Biodiesel, as defined in D 6751, is registered with the US EPA as a fuel and a fuel additive under Section 211(b) of the Clean Air Act. When MB and the EPA approve SVO and WVO to be used on public roads, I'll be ready to embrace it with open arms.

Heck, even I am taking a risk to use biodiesel. I use B20 while MB has only approved B5 fuel.

I'm not quite sure how to respond. So I guess I will just jump in here.

Any "modern" production diesel engine is not designed to run on anything except dino-diesel. One exception comes to mind is the 3 cyl. Elsbett engine "designed" to run svo. AFAIK it is not in production in any quantity if at all. So, by getting righteous and saying MB's engine isn't designed to run VO.... well, none are - As evidenced by the fact that either the fuel needs to be altered to behave more like dino-diesel (B100) or heated to thin it near the viscosity of dino (a two tank kit). With your EGR removed you are in violation of at least one Federal EPA regulation that carries a fine of around $250K for tampering with and/or disabling a vehicle's emission control devices. Oh yeah, water/methanol is for "off road use only".

I can't believe that in a little under two years - the amount of time fuel prices started to jump [this time] wvo/svo use has gone from the "hippie fringe" to "on the tax-man's radar"!!!

Bio-d does not limit dependence on foreign oil as much as we would like to think. In a tank of B20 lets have a look. 20 gallon tank. 4 gallons of bio-d. In its production the amount of methanol used is like 23%? Home brewers can help me here. What the heck for simplicity lets call it 25% because of the heat used in drying not to mention the water washes... So in that 20 gallon tank, the amount of bio-fuel is actually......... 3 gallons or 15% - per TANK of dino.

In VO100, there is lets see, enough dino diesel used to bring the engine up to temp. If it takes 5 miles to do that and he only gets 20 mpg that's 1/4 of a gallon. Then enough dino to purge the pump during shutdown... lets call it a cup. So, for each trip longer than 5 miles about 40 ounces of dino is used - no matter how far the trip is or until he runs out of veggie. So, which fuel decreases dependence on terrorist oil faster?????

My guess is that with an ever increasingly arcane road tax structure, and the auto industry's lobby on hybrids the little state tax man has little recourse to try to tax the hybrids... yet. This is one attempt to shake the trees and find the money falling from them.

The "level the playing field" I hope wasn't a slip of the tongue. Level the playing field for whom? The oil companies? The commercial bio-d processors? His cousin's "fill'in station" down the street???

As for Massachusetts, the southern states don't have a corner on the "good-'ol-boy" network of taxes, bureaucracy and nepotism in government jobs. In fact when I first moved to Mass from Ohio, I never saw more gun racks in the back of pick-ups or heard as much country music being played on the radio as in the little town I lived in when I first moved here. When I read the story I could almost see in my mind's eye the way it went down. They done caught themselves a heinous lawbreaker!!!

C.

P.S. In the 4 gallons of bio-d I did not want to imply that there was a gallon of methanol... Because I said 3 gallons. There are still 4 gallons... It just took another gallon of a fossil fuel to make the 4 gallons. So, to use 4 gallons of bio-fuel 17 gallons of fossil fuel are consumed.. There, is that correct?

cconbalsam · #27 06-11-2007, 10:41 PM

Forced induction - The big problem with NC law is that you are supposed to post a $2500 bond to use vo and also pay road tax. I have no problem with paying road tax, and when I get my system running I will. But why should anyone have to pay a bond?

Knightrider966 · #28 06-11-2007, 10:59 PM

Hey, I'm all for taxing bicycles and making them pay their fair share! We should not have to be paying and subsidising their interests while sharing the road with them. Bicycles make so mant STUPID moves out on the road that taxing them and making them fly tags is a GREAT IDEA!

Here in Arizona, the state encourages the use of biodiesel to clear up our skies and I have a sticker on my Benz that says "Biodiesel, feed a farmer, starve a terrorist!" People get the idea!

Shorebilly · #29 06-12-2007, 06:34 AM

No one bothers to mention the US dependence upon imported oil.....If the Fed Govt. wants to wean the US population from imported oil, then the Fed Govt. (read that Senate & Congress) should make Bio-Fuels Tax Exempt.

This Forum is a small sample of what is happening in DC.....there will be total gridlock between the Political Parties...dependent upon which part of the population is sampled for a "poll"......

It seems like an unpopular thought to unite and do what's best for the USA, instead of arguing about who is going to benefit.....bottom line....we're back to the "support what benefits ME...and F**k the rest of y'all" attitude that is prevalent in the USA.

Maybe everyone should note what happened to the Romans.....

SB

Shorebilly · #30 06-12-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

The original diesel engine was designed to run on coal dust. Let's see you convert your engine to run on that.

Please note that the Germans did exactly that during WWII.....although not directly as Rudolph Diesel did in his early engines....

SB

Note: I have personally run Diesel engines on a wide variety of residual fuels...from "Bunker C" thru "IBF 380" to "Gasoil".....and the heavier, thicker, nastier looking the stuff is....the more BTU/pound there is available to do work.....there is nothing about the Diesel that prevents burning other fuels.....it's the Mercedes-Benz factory that is setting standards for the longevity of their engines by "recommending" that a particular fuel be used.

Note II: The separator manufacturers began to make "ring dams" for their fuel oil separators (removes water, and particulate matter from any fuel) that allow for fuels with a specific gravity of greater than 1.0000, sometime back in the mid '80's....in simplespeak, fuels that are heavier than water and will sink...