For a "libertarian", you definately have never read the constitution, or at least you dont understand it.

HEY, what about totally electric cars? those have been produced legally and driven on public roads, theyre not paying any road taxes!

How is that relevant? Enforcement or lack of it is one issue. Legality is another. Yesterday I was at the grocery store and I stuffed a frozen turkey down my pants and the clerk was too lazy to get on my case. Does that make me less of a thief? All it means is I didn't get caught and prosecuted for it. Can I honestly say I didn't steal?

Hopefully that will be addressed at some point when they get more popular.

rcounts,

BRAVO! Don't forget the potential carbon credits that should be awarded to VO burning cars because they are not polluting the air as much. I think someone mentioned this already?

Now you are talking about a person's conscience. I thought we were talking about the legallity of it.

In the example you mentioned it was a lazy clerk not enforcing it, not the government. Very, very big difference. The government writes and enforces laws, not a single person working in a grocery store.

If... EPA decides to come after it, they do it directly under the Authority of 40 CFR. They pride themselves on having more lawyers than any other branch and pride themselves on paying those salaries with fines. But there is also direct jail time in those laws. It doesn't have to just be fines.

Now... its important to keep in mind that States were allowed to petition EPA to run their own programs and encouraged to run their own programs for compliance with 40CFR and most did and do. Very few exceptions. They each have their own "State EPA" if you will. Normally any action taken to enforce these laws are initiated by the state program. Typical names of these are "Department of Environmental Control".. or something along that lines. They vary but each of you knows which one yours is. At least one state does not operate its own program. If you don't operate your own program then you are by default operated by EPA directly. No middle State involvement. But... in the end, EPA looks over their shoulder. And sometimes makes them initiate actions. But in most cases the State initiate the action and EPA approves its final disposition only.

But in the case of a State itself, by some other action or area, violates the law, then EPA directly enforces the action on the state. So in the cases of states allowing use of Vegetable oil as a fuel, it is MORE likely the EPA will take action against that state. Not you. However they can and might also take action against those states that do not pass legislation to use it, but instead do nothing to enforce it. Most of that will be state enforced. If it ever occurs.

I don't think this is a hot button issue for EPA right now. They expect those states to enforce it if they find it. I also don't think many states have the resources to go out and look for it. So I think the risk of enforcement is low.

However, as states try and pass legislation to allow it, then the EPA is forced to do something. And one could hope they would approve it. You can also imagine that there will be objection to its approval.

It is probably all coming to a head I think. I don't think, now that a few states have approved its use, they can sit around anymore. They are going to have to address it. Either by challenging those states to comply or by approving it.

Possibly you would.....should you frequent a forum devoted to loving/restoring classic snowballs.......and then a bunch of people starting logging in and posting that it's OK to throw them and that they are justified in throwing them because they once saw you picking your nose.

I'm just saying that irrespective of whether the person gets caught or not, that act is one of tax evasion. Now, if they can live with it and don't get caught, fine. Only don't tell me that that person is doing this good or is pure as the driven snow or some other justification. Is Robin Hood a thief? Absolutely. You might want to say he is giving it to the poor, etc, etc but that does nothing to say he didn't steal.

What's the difference? I cannot throw you in jail for stealing from me but I can certainly detain you till the cops come and take you away and whatever else it is they do.

I am not talking about tax evasion. I am talking about the legallity of using vegetable oil as a fuel.

Say a veggie user pays taxes for the vegetable oil they use. Would you consider them illegal then?

I agree with you on the tax aspect of it and would have no problem with the Department of Revenue charging veggie users who hadn't payed their taxes for tax fraud. Although it is obvioulsy a grey area and wouldn't fault a veggie user because there is no clear cut system in place to pay taxes, at least in the vast majority of states.

I am simply talking about the legallity of using vegetable oil as a fuel, taxes aside.

Man, this has GOT to be the most hyjacked thread I've ever seen on this forum.

Exacly, but you asked 'am I not a thief' because the clerk let me get away with it.

My response would be no, you are still a thief because if the cops or government found out about it they would arrest and charge you.

If the government found out about a person who ran vegetable oil, they could care less. The only issue they may have is does the person pay taxes. The could care less that they are using vegetable oil instead of petroleum. Therefore these two examples, are as you say, apples and oranges.

Well the title does at least state veggie oil in it! :D

This is my favorite post in the whole thread for so many reasons...:D

Jordan, I bet you are one hell of a fun guy to drink a beer with. I usually laugh every time I read your posts...

I'm not saying that this is or should be applicable to ALL crime, just that it is still a viable option when the "crime" is violation of an unjust or stupid law...

cphilip, you are right on the money in terms of the current state of affairs in environmental law. I work for a large corporation and my responsibility is Environmental Compliance, so I have a good deal of personal experience and knowledge in this area - I deal with it every day and have for years. For those reading it who don't, your post was no doubt VERY educational, because you summarized the current state of things very well and succinctly.

However, just like the earlier example of Texas "nullifying" the 55 mile per hour FEDERAL speed limit, States do have recourse against the draconian power of the over-reaching federales - even if their case won't stand up in court. Remember folks, under the Constitution we are supposed to be a group of sovereign states united under one federal government - whose sole responsibilities under the Constitution are to regulate interstate trade, provide for the common welfare, and for our common defense.

The problem is that WE and our state governments have allowed far too much of our own soveriegnty to be usurped and eroded by a federal government that has increasingly created and empowered more and more UNELECTED bureaucracies to control us like sheep. I for one think it is high time that the states, and we a individuals, stand up and oppose this steady encroachement on our freedoms.

That part is for the courts to decide not the individual or I'd be saying that it is a stupid law that prohibits me from doing this that or the other. If you wanna get charged and have your day in court, so be it. If the courts agree with you, fair enough. If not, oh well.