New veggy oil?
 

Diesel sells for 4.20 a gallon. Costco sells new veggy oil for 2.20 a gallon. whats wrong with burning a 50/50 mis of diesel/veggy? any downsides? Just trying to stretch a dollar. Ernie

Why not 100%?

injector pump?
 

I don't want to clog up filters and possibly hurt the injector pump. It needs lubrication.

What do you think Veg oil is???

Doc.

With a good fuel heater it should be okay. It also would be better to start and warm up on diesel plus shutdown on diesel. Cold engines and cold vegatable oil in any reasonable percentage are not the best mix. Why take chances?

I finished disconnecting a vegatable car that was running on fundementally unheated vegatable oil quite awhile ago. Have not had a chance to really drive it till now. The only evidence of a fuel heater was a coil of copper wound tightly around the upper radiator hose. Plus a booster pump back by the tank. I do not think he ran it long enough on this system to do any lasting damage. Or hope not. I will never know how long he was using :D as I will never talk to him.
As soon as I get a few thousand miles on it I will know. It does seem to have good compression but smokes a little more than it should at idle with fuel oil in it at present. This is a little strange as the engine exhibits the least blowby of any of my diesel engines. Maybe coked injectors?
If the guy had used good heaters on his system I might have considered leaving it. Also since the car is really good and has true low milage it would be quite distressing to do the engine or injector pump in.
I tend to believe anything but a well engineered system should be reserved for a true beater. With out enough heating of the vegatable oil you may markedly shorten the engines life. I try to keep an open mind. Too many people try to do shortcuts in my opinion.
Read the vegatable oil sites. I am also all for saving money too. Making quality biodiesel with a group of guys seems to make more sense to me. Sounds like less than a dollar a gallon when you get underway. In my opinion that would be an investment in the future as well.
Prices of fuel will generally tend upward over the long and short term in my opinion. There may be some short term blips downward but one should not get false hope when they happen. Remember we north americans have had it better than most of the world for a long time. That time in my opinion may slowly be passing with countries like China and next perhaps Africa probably starting to become world beating economies.
Japan took about twenty years. China seems to be taking about ten. The next major country will be even faster. It is inevatable in my opinion. I hope I am wrong for my grandchildrens sake.
There is little doubt in my mind that we are engaged in economic warfare of a very complex nature. On this basis planning and using cheap fuel makes a lot of sense to me. If you do the biodiesel well you can sell the reasonable surplus easily enough to negate your cost for what you burn. I guess it all depends on how much cheap or free base stock is in your area.

My next door neighbor's daughter's ex-boyfriend has a 2-tank conversion Mercedes and runs Costco veggie oil all the time. I don't want to go the conversion route but I bet I could mix 1 part veggie oil to 3 or 4 parts B100 (we are now paying about $4.35/gallon here in NorCal) without any problems, especially in warm summer weather. Maybe even in our mild winters, but I'd like to hear from someone who has done it first.

Jeremy

Done it.

If the weather is above 32 f you should be fine with an 50/50 mixture

even 80 / 20 would be good.

downside....
if you never ran veggie in the system you should be prepared to change filters once or twice in the next month;

and definetly get a hold of some Startron Diesel additive at a marine supply shop or maybe NAPA......

you could also add 2 oz of powerservice cetane boost, and 1 oz of acetone per 5 gallons of veggie.

AA

what brand of oil is this and in what quantity does it come in, i am very interested.

Huh?? new VO should not be a problem with filters. It does not loosen old stuff like BioD and does not have the gunk that WVO can have. I can't argue with the Cetane boost (other than from the cost perspective), but so far, I've not seen any proof that acetone does anything. (Yeah, I ran several tanks using it just to see.....)

BTW, I always carry a couple of extra 'pre' filters with me.

It is illegal to burn on public roads, you will be evading your road taxes, you will be hurting the real law aiding and tax paying citizens and you will be harming your engine through poor combustion, oil contamination and glycerin damage to the injection system.

Leave the vegetable oil to do what it was made to do, cook food.

What "road tax"? I paid enough taxes on April 15.
I can put anything I like in my fuel tank.

I'll be happy to pay my taxes when I see my tax money spent wisely.

Saying you paid enough taxes is like a burglar saying they "only" robbed 5 houses and not 7. Its dishonest either way.

Anywho, I doubt costco is selling veg oil for $2.20 a gallon. I visited costco last year and it was like $4.90 a gallon. Sams club clear fry oil was about $3 a gallon two years ago, now its close to $7!!!!

$2.20 is an economical impossibility....with todays oil and food/corn prices.

There is no such thing as "enough" taxes, only ALL your due taxes.

You can, but legally you really can't.

Exactly. I never understand people wanting to evade taxes and stuff....do you not want to improve public services and roads etc..? Europeans pay oodles of taxes compared to us, and they get free healthcare, college, schooling, beautiful roads, excellent public places and services....etc....in the USA no-one thinks that way, its all a gimme-gimme-greedy society.

I bought a trailer last year from a guy for $250........he says to me...I can put like $75 on here (on our invoice/receipt thing) so you don't pay so much on the taxes.....I said "I'll HONESTLY pay all the taxes on this, not necessary." He looked stunned and just wrote the $250 on there. :D Just an ordinary guy, his little kids were playing in the next room. Hey kids, dad's a criminal!

So much for Hillary Clinton or Barrack Obama!:rolleyes:

So much for any system of government. :rolleyes:

I can certainly see Forced's point of view on taxes, especially living in Federal Heights as he does . . . :D

but leaving the legalities aside,

how much "mixing" does it take to blend the veggie oil with whatever else you are using as fuel? I'd like to be able to pour five or ten gallons of VO directly into, say, half a tank of biodiesel and let it "mix itself." But I don't want the VO to lay there like a cheapoburger in the pit of my stomach and give the car heartburn.

Incidentally, all of our diesels have been on B100 for many miles so any petro-crud that might be loosened has already been loosened, IMHO.

Jeremy

November 2008 is coming and I sure miss Senator Barry Goldwater!:cowboy::beerchug::sun_smile

I ran a 70% veg, 20% diesel 10% RUG mix a couple years ago for an entire tank, and it ran happily off it.....probably wasn't good for the motor though.

VO will re-introduce it back into the engine! Biodiesel does not have glycerin in it.

I'd be more inclined to feel sorry for the state getting cheated out of their valuable road-fixing tax money if I saw any real repairs being done on the roads in the vicinity from which I paid the taxes. Everywhere I go there's disrepair.

My road tax money is going to hire more state troopers to suck more money (and happiness) out of my life.

Road repair funding is a crock......
 

Uh, folks, the FEDERAL part of the fuel taxes is supposed to be spent on renewal/repair of federal highways. However, thanks to the John Kennedy administration back in the sixties, by convincing congress to spend any and all revenues (social security used to be stand alone from the general revenue, to be spent only on SS benefits) however they wanted, established a prescedent. Now any and all revenues are spent however they want. So now your "road use" taxes are spent on whatever pork barrel project is in vogue. MOST state road projects rely on some form of federal matching funds as most roads are rated both federal and state. Therefore no federal matching funds, no state road repair.

Several years back here in TEXAS, the Federal Dept. of Transport was gonna stop funds from coming back from Warshingtun, fer road rebuilding/repair because TEXAS was not enforcing the 55 mph speed limit enough to suit the federalies. Gubernator at the time as Dubya, I think. Told the feds to jest go ahead and withhold funds iffen they wanted to. Cept, since the state collected the funds in the first place and forwarded the fed portion to Warshingtun, that they (the Feds) should be prepared to collect such taxes themselves and not rely on the state fer the service. When faced with yet another bureau (or 50 such bureaus) that they would have to enact, and the resulting public uproar, the Feds backed off. Gest another blow for states rights fer ya information. And TEXAS is an unruly State. See, we are the only state that was a whole nuther country before joinin th Union.

Regards

Run-Em

You apparently haven't driven in N. VA. Here, they take OUR tax money and spend it on roads for the lower, less-heavily-populated areas of VA. Our roads up here are too small, too few, and too poorly maintained. Screw the frigging road taxes!

nah i don't think he is a criminal... there is no reason we should pay taxes on vehicles (or trailers) every time they are bought or sold.... the same for houses... the Gov't are the gimme-gimme's here

There sure is an awful lot of money going to "road repair and improvement" but roads and bridges everywhere are falling apart. That "tire disposal fee" you pay whenever you get new tires is "supposed" to be going towards road & bridge improvement. I'm a Jersey transplant to Texas, and for the most part, the roads here aren't really better than Jersey which is a big surprise. I figured with less frost-heaving and salt, they'd be light years better but Texas, like Jersey, seems to be under perpetual construction.

Looks like Daddy is a criminal after all. :eek:

I applaud the honesty of those who want to hand over every cent the government wants to suck, however I believe the thieves are the ones in charge of spending our hard earned taxes. Also lets not forget who and what we are funding by buying more petro in the first place.

As for burning store bought VO I believe you are being taxed on that as well so whats the problem?

I have been running mixtures as high as 80% WVO in the summer and 50/50 in the winter for the last 2 yrs without problems. The amount of money I save on fuel I could afford to replace my car every year and still come out ahead!

Amen Brother!!!!

Sales tax is not road tax. Your car wears the road, not the store.

Hey Tom,

Have you driven on the roads in Franklin County or out in Roanoke? They are HORRIBLE! Infact the leading cause of death out there is getting your pick'emup airborne off'n the side of a mountain!
I think roads all over Va are built once then forgotten about -- after all they have a big need for cash in Richmond! gotta fund the guns for cash program among others

Actually your money is probably going to food and healthcare costs for the deserving poor. Cops have to fund themselves making them itchy to write tickets :D

More info on this $2.20 a gallon costco veggie oil please. thank you. web link?

Let me get this right...

The roads are horrible and barely maintained, so, you take away even more budget money so they have LESS to repair the roads with.

Yeah, great logic you got there. :rolleyes:

AFAIK, those are 2 separate issues.

First, no way is Costco selling veggie for $2.20/gallon.
That math was bad somewhere.

Second, while I firmly believe in paying taxes (mom always told me that taxes are the price we pay for living in a civilized society) I don't believe in being taxed 5 times on my money. I get taxed for social-which may not be there when I retire, medicare-also might not be around when I need it and FICA. Then when I buy something I'm made to pay a sales tax. If I buy something for the bar, say a bar stool, I get property taxed for it every year! I buy it taxed (since its not for resale I have to pay sales tax on it) then every year I am accesed(sp?) property taxes on it.

As for road taxes, they can eat my shorts!
My husband and I are cyclists and the roads here SUCK! We are made to stay as far right on the road as possible BUT that is where all the debris from the roads collect. That's where all the holes are that can cause me to go down and get run over by a fool in a car (caggers we call them) that thinks they should be able to drive so close to me that I can touch the car as they go by. I'll BE HAPPY to pay extra road taxes on the fuel I do buy (I own a YUKON for crips sake-and 2 diesels that get driven regularly) when the GOV does something about the roads I have to drive.

If that makes me a criminal (since I use 12 gallons of WVO in the greasecar each week) then so be it.

And Lance, we live in the same city, you KNOW what the roads around here looks like. And the number of cars, the amount of taxes that are collected should, very easily fix and keep fixed the roads of Denver.

Road tax and getting caught on evasion aside, is VO really the same? Do you get the same mpg and power. Yes, it might be $2.20 a gal but if you are spending more to go further, is it worth it? What is the hassle factor?

I KNOW that SOME roads could use work, I see the work they do and I know they are using plenty of the road taxes to fix the roads and expand the city's infrastructure. Have you seen all the construction that was/is done in the last 5 years?

TREX? The I25-36-I270 junction area reconstruction? The new exit bridge they are building from I270 to I76 and from I76 to I270? The 2 miles of I270 they completely rebuilt? E470's two new bridges over I70? The new roads in Stapleton? All the new suburban roads built as the city expands south-east and north? The GIANT sink hole on I25&58th that was completely repaired in less than two weeks?

You just have to open your eyes and LOOK at what they are doing!

Its just as good, if not better than this bit of logic:
The store doesn't keep the sales tax.

Don't let FI get to you folks. If you haven't noticed, he's the resident anti-VO-thread-fouler.
His logic is weak and you can eventually wear his arguments down. But then he sees a fresh thread like this and starts all over again. Give it a rest, man. Think about all the free time you'd have if you didn't click on and reply to all those VO posts. Better yet, get yourself a job with the EPA or IRS and start putting all this hostility to use. But make sure you put your modified fuel system back to stock. Violating a federal law wouldn't look good on your resume.

Bill Clinton chopped our military by a huge chunk and we are doing more with what we have left than anyone would have thought possible regardless of your stand on the war.

When has giving more money ever solved the problem with the government. I believe if they gave a crap about fixing the roads they could do it on one tenth the budget they currently have, what ever the amount. (stop the waste) It is amazing how resourceful you get when you don't have much to work with but have to get the job done.

As for gettin caught with VO or WVO or off road diesel in your tank, I don't think I have ever been pulled over and asked what was in the tank. Word of caution there, don't drive around with your stickers bragging about your fuel source. keep it to yourself.

If you still believe your government isn't stealing from you and is going to take care of all your problems like a pimp takes care of a whore then go ahead and hand over every last cent and don't worry about a thing it will all be ok.

I corrected it for you. :)

I'm going to Costco today and will report back on their price. Last I heard, a jug containing just under 4 quarts was selling for $3.something. I also plan to do some kitchen experiments with VO and biodiesel to learn how easily they will blend.

On the tax issue, VO and WVO and homemade biodiesel users could be paying road tax on their fuel (we just don't know about it). The details on procedures, state by state, may be found here (The Official Site of the National VegOil Board).

Here in California, VO has an advantage over WVO in that WVO transporters are required to have a license (currently $100/year + $75/vehicle) and a $1 million bond. So WVO is no longer "free." Perhaps more importantly, the procedure effectively "raises your head above the weeds" where it can be seen by other regulating and taxing authorities.

Sales tax is a wash -- both veg oil at the store and motor fuel at the pump is subject to sales tax. Caveat: in some states, food is not taxed. Whether veg oil is considered "food" may vary from state to state.

The bottom line is that using fuel in a road vehicle without paying road taxes is at best a form of a loophole and loopholes are almost always closed eventually. At worst it is tax evasion, which can be serious if someone wants to make an example out of you. I have not heard of that happening (other than inspections for "red diesel") but it is always a possibility.

In extreme rural areas (Siberia, for example) people have modified internal combustion engines to run on the gas fumes from slowly burning wood, probably a procedure similar to propane or CNG conversions. The gas generators are fueled with lengths of the small trees that cover the earth in those areas. I wonder how that would be taxed here (aside from the smog issues)?

I, of course, am buying the stuff to use in my Satoh "Beaver" diesel tractor, which is not an on-road vehicle and therefore not subject to the tax. :D

Jeremy

Great thread!! It seems as though some people get caught up in the trivialities of obeying the law. Anyone have their EGR connected? Or working properly? If one of the Marxists gets elected that will become a felony, and you will be banished to the North Pole to drown with the polar bears. All kidding aside, I appreciate the need to be a part of a law abiding country even when many around us do not. With that said, I think it is incumbent on the individual citizen to weigh the perceived need for a million and one laws against the cost and burden those very laws cause the citizen. We have had laws and taxes shoved in every orrifice by every level of government in this country as I see it, not much has improved. Time to rise up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Get some revolution up in this *****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all break the law on some level just about every day, usually because it helps us in some way (speeding, having an extra beer or two at the pub, keeping multiple wives.........) Let's all have a big mug of "Lighten the Hell Up" juice.:P

I wasn't advocating evading taxes here. I was stating that I am unhappy paying my taxes because of the all the waste and incompetence I see in our govt.
We should try to vote the a-holes out that are responsible for all the waste but I don't even have faith in the voting system. It's all a farce!

Amen to that. We're not here to soapbox and blow the whistle on one another. Everybody who takes advice knows that they do according to whatever legal and other codes they personally adopt and do so at their own risk... end of story. No amount of bickering is going to convince someone who's determined not to try to get away with anything that it's really okay. Likewise, no amount of making everyone look like a criminal is going to stop those who have the "When the cat's away, the mouse comes out to play" view of things. So what's the point in everything getting derailed over issues that are secondary to the primary questions?

End of rant. This is just becoming far too habitual to be useful in the discussions. On all accounts.

What about all the road taxes they collect on the fuel you use in your lawnmowers. I mow over 2 acres during the growing season with my lawn tractor and that uses quite a bit of fuel. What about that?

I really love people who claim that my road taxes must fix the roads, and especially so when these people work for trucking companies.

Trucks do a whole lot more damage to the road. The last time I saw a comparison, one truck did an equivalent damage to 6000 sedans. Unless the truck burns 6000 times more fuel (and it clearly does not), it is grossly underpaying its share of the road repairs.

What about the argument that burning WOV pollutes much less than diesel so you should get any carbon credits you have paid refunded by Mao Gore and his minions.

This, I agree with.

Google "ESALS" to see how civil engineers design today's pavements.