Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion > Alternative Fuels

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-03-2012, 08:41 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
1983 240D Greasecar New Owner Questions

Hello all,

I bought a lovely Russet Brown 240D on Friday complete with a Greasecar conversion. The tank is in the spare tire well, hoses run, switches and gauge in (but not mounted :/), etc.

The PO stated that the car sometimes ran sluggish on WVO and at first he said it might be a "vacuum leak" but then said after he looked at it again during our negotiations that it was likely a clog as he hadn't changed the filters in quite a while (the car had previously sat as a "start it to keep it running" car since 2010--I have put 150-200 miles on it since getting it on Friday--it's running fine on diesel).

So I have run it three times on WVO. The first two times there were no problems. The third time, yesterday afternoon, the car began to slow from 60-40mph. It was clear there was a power sink of some sort.

So I'd like to start off with the basics--changing the filters. I have posted some pictures:

http://imgur.com/a/CUryi

The first two are my spare filter--is it supposed to have a rubber ring seal around the top?

The third is a filter PO said he had *never* replaced. Does it look familiar to anyone?

The fourth I think he mentioned as a filter but it doesn't have any fluid in it. ID-able?

The fifth is another filter--it appears to have clear looking WVO in it.

The sixth is the position of the filter for which I have a (possibly incomplete) filter shown in the first two pictures.

The seventh is a picture of the whole setup.

I can take more pictures as needed. If you want to see Jesse Owens (the car) himself, look in the Diesel Discussion page under, I think, "Veggie 240D follow up part deux."

So some questions:

Does anything look weird?

When I fill the fuel filters, do I need to fill them with VO or WVO first?

After I change the filters, PO said I should use the manual fuel pump on the side of the engine to get fuel in all the lines. Is this correct? Will it fill the filters for me?

What else do I need to know *at this point*?

Where is the next place I should look if changing the filters doesn't fix the problem?

Where is the best place to get filters? Can I get them (for now) from my local auto parts warehouse?

Thanks to all,
Michael

Last edited by gmpalmer; 09-03-2012 at 09:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-03-2012, 09:11 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
More info:

The clear filter says FF3311/G2984 Made in Israel 0936.

The large filter is F50359.

The filter with the orange part appears to be unlabeled except for saying "GAS FILTER."

Also, thoughts regarding Baldwin brand filters?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-03-2012, 11:16 AM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
You mentioned it's a Greasecar kit. I think you need to double-confirm with the previous owner whether it's actually a complete KIT or just some individual components purchased from them. I say that because if that is their filter head, it's a very old version and I wasn't aware they even sold it in their kits.

Get a copy of his bill of sale for the kit if possible, something that enumerates the components. And ask the PO about his filtering of the WVO. He should be able to give specific answers on the steps he followed (or if he was purchasing from someone else, their specs).

I don't see is the switching valves and heat source(s) in your pics. This IS a two-tank system, right?

The fourth filter, the one with no fluid in it, has nothing to do with the WVO system. It's placed in a vacuum line that runs off the main line from the vacuum pump at the front of the motor. (Diesels need a vacuum pump as they don't produce intake vacuum.) It should stay clear, as it is now. If it starts to cloud up or show oil, it means the vacuum pump is leaking oil and needs service. If oil starts leaking into the vacuum lines it can end up as a real mess (nothing controlled by vacuum works).

You really need to get the line heaters (wraps) for the steel fuel lines.
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Last edited by Zacharias; 09-03-2012 at 11:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-03-2012, 11:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
He converted it in 2006, when he purchased the car. It was his second WVO conversion. There are heaters somewhere--I should take some more pictures, yes?

When I called greasecar about the car and said there were multiple filters they said that they only have one filter--so I don't know if it's "doctored" or not--I will ask PO later today.

He was filtering through a 10 and then 5 micron system. I don't know how/if he was filtering out water. I don't know that he was (egad, I know). I'm planning to set up a boiling system to ensure that all the water (or as much as one can) is out. And I'm always ready to listen to advice regarding WVO filtration.

I think until I can get things set up, I will probably use the contacts I have to get $1.25/gal new VO for futzing with the system.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-03-2012, 12:01 PM
NCfriend's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edneyville, North Carolina
Posts: 767
The first filter (2 pics) should have a rubber seal; it may be stuck on the bottom of the filter housing where it screws onto?! I have seen a couple get left attached due to heat.

second if the your MB stock secondary filter and good to change about every oil change. or Now if never done! Likely only running your original tank's diesel supply through it and should be clean enough between routine changes.

The fourth pic I have seen before, where someone improvises a "primary fuel filter" onto a vacuum line to replace a factory "vacuum dashpot" . I am not very knowledgeable about the vacuum systems, but answers are easy to obtain here.

The fifth is your MB factory "primary filter" and should be changed anytime the inside screen starts collecting alot of dark trash. It is the filter that will be the FIRST to clog! It protects the injection pump and gets first taste of all your fuels.
Carry a couple extra and a long handle screwdriver to reach the hose clamps. Be ready to change on side of the road (any of these actually!! but be careful of the hot engine parts - coolant lines and metal block.

*Find a good explanation on changing fuel filters and priming the lines to print out and keep in the glovebox with a spare filter of each kind and all basic tools needed.
Most filter changes don't require the priming sequence.

That extra filter is your WVO filter, though it is a more generic one than I'd expect from greasecar. Perhaps just an addtional add-on by an owner?

We need a pic of that front corner backed-out some, where that fuel filter and likely the FPHE (flat-plate heat exchanger) is using the coolant lines (red tubing) to exchange heat to that veg fuel coming in.

Also: let's see the tank in the trunk.
Is there another filter set-up there?
Any heat source electric or coolant lines running back to that tank?

First impression: sounds like old clogged filters. May have to flush the veg lines.
Long-term: need more heat (ex: injector-line wraps mentioned by Zacharias)
__________________
1990 300D 2.5Turbo, two tank WVO, daily driver 300,911
1992 E300 gaser, 150k. Parts only, For Sale

[B]1984 300TD Euro 4speed Sold
1977 300D Elsbett SVO single tank Sold
1981 300TD "Silver bullet" 285k ran B100 Sold
1981-5 300D x 5 cars stripped and reused, parts for sale

Other toys:
1995 Dodge 2500 Cummins 12V P7100 Bosch mechanical pump with 2 tank veggieconversion kit, only 120k!
1959 Cadillac Dad's legacy, needs finishing
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-03-2012, 12:51 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
Okay, new pictures as requested here:

Photo Album - Imgur

I have a spare heater coil thing that is supposed to go over one of the larger filters. It isn't installed. PO said he didn't find it necessary in Florida.

Thanks!
Michael
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-03-2012, 01:44 PM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmpalmer View Post
I have a spare heater coil thing that is supposed to go over one of the larger filters. It isn't installed. PO said he didn't find it necessary in Florida.
Ah. So what heats the WVO?
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-03-2012, 02:20 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
Magic?

He said he had one heater installed. Not sure where it is, though. . .
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-03-2012, 04:56 PM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmpalmer View Post
Magic?

He said he had one heater installed. Not sure where it is, though. . .
LOL okay well I hope not magic.

I visited the Greasecar site and they still have those filter wrap heaters standard. From what I can see, I guess your tank is heated. If the heated tank is all the PO went with, that isn't enough.

At minimum you need to get that coil installed. Coil setups of that type were common in early WVO setups but that concept is isn't very efficient (too much heat loss and not enough exposure to the WVO). A flat-plate heat exchanger, 16 or 20 plate, is a much better idea and is compact enough to not be a huge installation headache under the hood.

EDIT: There are also better heated filter options you could explore if you don't want to plumb another element (the FPHE) into the system. If you're handy with basic plumbing work you can also build your own heat exchanger fairly easily, if that moves you.

Even with the FPHP, you need an additional boost of heat just prior to injection (the line wraps I mentioned).

As you are researching WVO theory, read up on optimal injection temps for WVO and you'll quickly see what I am talking about. Coolant heat transfer alone won't get the temps quite high enough, well not by my call anyway.
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Last edited by Zacharias; 09-03-2012 at 07:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-04-2012, 10:14 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
Got my email back from PO:

The Greasecar kit was the one on PO's first MB-Diesel, a 300. When he sold that car he took off the kit, meaning it predates 2006. When he converted the 240 he got a round tank instead of the square he had previously.

It was not a total GC kit but the "important parts" from Greasecar and hoses, etc. from Napa.

It is heated by the radiator coolant lines.

So I should add a heater element prior to the injectors? How hot should it be? Can it be too hot? This is Florida, after all.

Also: best place to buy filters and do folks have opinions on brand?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-04-2012, 01:02 PM
Zacharias's Avatar
Not so amused
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Quebec
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmpalmer View Post
It is heated by the radiator coolant lines.
Not adequate in that configuration. Geographic location if of minimal importance.

To give the PO the benefit of the doubt, if he got into WVO prior to 2006, and didn't keep up with the info after, someone may have actually sold him on that setup back then. WVO was, and is, experimental technology and things came along a great deal after '06 (I got involved in '07 and there was hairy debate on some of this stuff around then).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmpalmer View Post
So I should add a heater element prior to the injectors? How hot should it be? Can it be too hot? This is Florida, after all.
Assuming that tank has a heating element, that is designed to get the WVO hot enough to move. The heat in the lines running to the front of the car is there to keep it warm. In no way does that make the vegoil hot enough for fuel.

As I mentioned in my other post, you need a heat element under the hood prior to the injection pump, to give a heat boost -- then the line heaters on the injection lines.

The WVO has to be as hot as can be achieved by the coolant prior to reaching the pump BUT not at full optimal injection temp as that is considered problematic for the seals in the pump, which weren't designed for that sort of heat.

To match the viscosity of diesel fuel, the WVO has to be 160F at the injectors. Otherwise you are pretty much doing the equivalent of trying to drink lukewarm bacon fat through a soft drink straw (as a very rough anaology). The system has to be at full working temp before you switch over from diesel and you must do a 'purge' cycle (at least 30 seconds, preferably a minute or more) on diesel before you shut down.

Pushing lower temperature WVO through gradually clogs the injectors and cokes up the rings. To find out more about that, google "ring polymerization WVO".

One of the biggest problems with the whole WVO thing was the original selling point that was "free" fuel. That has made it a hard sell to explain that the fuel is sort of free (if you don't count processing expenses and your time in the whole thing), but the setup on the car isn't, by far. Anyone involved with WVO has dealt with folks who arrive on the boards saying "but my car runs okay on WVO without all that extra heating stuff."

That may be true, for a while. But it's simply a testament to the robustness of the Mercedes components. Just because the car will run on whatever is being pushed through the injectors, doesn't equate to it being okay. The injection pump is a precision instrument. To do things properly you have to make the WVO behave as close as possible to what the pump and injectors (and combustion chamber and in a sense, the rings) were designed to deal with: diesel fuel.

There are people who do the wrong thing, knowingly, as they feel on the balance the money they save running the WVO balances out the eventual early demise of their motor or injection pump. That's how they choose to approach it and if that's their choice, I don't particularly respect it but it's their ride, not mine.

As you obviously have great affection for this car, I strongly suggest you get the setup correct if you have long term plans for it. Decent OM616s are very hard to find used. I know. I bought a used 240d that that had been run without proper heat on WVO and tried my damndest to rescue it. It was a lovely car that had been well taken care of by one owner until its last 3 years. I lost the fight with polymerization after trying every snake oil approach. I kept it in my driveway for years until I gave up on finding a decent motor, and it went to the boneyard.

I am not making this stuff up, nor am I some radical purist. Do a simple google on "optimal WVO injection temperatures" to confirm.

Here is one information source:
http://voconversionbasics.websitetoolbox.com/?forum=54654

ADDITION: I keep mentioning installing a coolant-based filter heater or FPHE under the hood. There are also 12v alternatives that might be easier for you to plumb into your existing setup, such as inline heaters and filter heater wraps. Check out Fattywagons dot com, they seem to be a good supplier based on what I have heard. They also sell the line wraps.

The only downside would be that I suspect once you start adding 12v heaters, you might need to upgrade the OE alternator, which I believe on that car is only 55 amp as living in Florida with AC on you'll be working it a bit much.
__________________


Mac
2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Last edited by Zacharias; 09-04-2012 at 03:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-23-2012, 08:03 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 39
Since this isn't off the front page, I guess I'll bump it up.

I finally got my first car sold so I have the cash to properly tune the WVO system.

As previously stated, the greasecar kit only has the underbody heat exchange and a tank heater.

I am planning, on advice, to add the filter heater and line heater wraps.

I have a few questions:

Since I have the radiator filter heater should I just use that or should I buy the electric one from fattywagons (since I'm going to get the wrap heaters from them, likely)?

I assume I will need a new, beefier alternator. Should I get the one at fattywagons or is there a better/cheaper alternative alternator?

If I have the wrap heater and line heaters do I also need a flat-plate heater?

What's the skinny on using new veggie oil? I can get it for about $1.25/gal which is, of course, much cheaper than diesel. I was thinking of using it until I get my filtration system properly set up.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-01-2012, 03:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 53
Hello,

I would recommend the addition of a FPHE to your system. Your heated filter will not get the oil up to temps. FPHEs are the most cost effective and efficient way to heat WVO on board.

Jason
WVO Designs
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page