A Frantz oil filter will be going on my SDL soon! 100K+ before the next oil change!
 

At the diesel meet on Sunday I was talking to the owner of a 1995 E300D with 316k on the clock. He had installed a Frantz oil filter on it 120k+ miles ago and was having awsome results! The way I understand it using toilete paper as a filtering element is an old but effective idea. It will filter down to sub micron size, it will filter the soot out for example. By doing this you never need to change the oil! All you have to do is every 2,500k replace the tp in the Frantz and add a quart of oil, than every 5k miles replace the oe filter+ the tp filter and add another quart etc. By doing this you are replenishing the oil additives, this is what wears out the oil never does, and the Frantez cleans it well enough that the oil stays very clean. He has had the same Delvac 1 in their for 120k miles and has had it tested every 10k miles and it always comes back good for another 10k! By doing this you are always running clean oil threw your engine, say you change your oil every 5k miles, after say 2k miles some soot starts to build up, the oil suspends it fine but it is still their. The Frantz filter will keep the soot and crap level very low say changing your oil every 1k miles low, so clean oil is always moving around your engine.

The way I plan to install this on my 603 is to copy the way he did it on his 606. I will tap off the oil filter cap, with a 90 degree fitting and run that pressure line to the Frantz, then I will tap my valve cover and drop the nice clean oil in right on the cam/timing chain. I will install a clear filter between the Frantz and the valve cover just in case the tp breaks apart. He did this also because he did not trust it at first. Hopefully the cleaner oil will help the lifters clear out, 603's seem to be sensitive to oil quality. I might still change it, I will get the oil tested at 5k mile intervials for awhile just to make sure it is fine. This will be my project this December.

Junk India filter's are a thing of the past.

This is their web site:
http://www.frantzfilters.com/products.htm

Is there a benefit to Charmin or is the Costco stuff okay? :)

Do you have more info on this Frantz filter?

Sixto

The fact that Frantz filters clean down to sub-micron size IS NOT a benefit, but rather a disadvantage.

By cleaning and trapping such small particles it also traps the beneficial additives that have been put in the oils by the oil Company. This is not good.

What you end-up with, is very clean oil, minus its intended beneficial additives. I would stick to the Mercedes Filter that is recommended for your car.

Ok the thread got messed up here is the whole thing. pberku read carefully the additives are not filtered out. Also some soot is left in the oil.

isn't toilet paper bleached and can't that leach out into the oil, thus increasing the acidity of the oil, neutralizing the TBN of the oil. and drill a hole into the oil pan for a return line...

How much oil are you bypassing from the engine? I'd be very concerned that you alter the oil circuit such that you bypass enough volume to starve the bearings.

Hatterasguy, I beg to disagree with you when you sat that the additives will not get filtered out.

If the Frantz filter, filters down to the sub-micron level, than the additives WILL DEFINITELY BE FILTERED OUT.

Phil

No insult meant, but do you have any firm evidence to back up that claim?

I haven't tried a Frantz filter myself, but I've heard good things about them from the truck side of things...and have actually considered using one on my truck...

I still have 2-3 Frantz Filters in my basement and did not know that they were still being sold. I would like to talk to a dealer about putting one or both on my diesels.

Had 1 on a 1973 Camaro that I sold with 235,000 miles (350 engine). Never an engine problem and it did not burn oil but I thought that at that mileage, it would soon develope problems and got rid of it. Saw it 2-3 years later on the street and still running. I did change the oil though in addition to the filter. The oil was always black and that worried me until the dealer told me that the color was due to scorching of the parafin in the oil. Whatever it was, it Never seemed to hurt anything. The toilet paper never broke down over the years either. I was worried about that too but it never happened.

Another filter was on the transmission of a 1972 Chev Malibu. Never had any transmission problems or engine problems either but did not keep it 200,000 miles.

The third filter was from a garage sale and I don't know if it is jetted for an engine or transmission.

Toilet paper is hard to find in that size nowadays. Most rolls are too small but I think that Scott Tissue looks to be the same size as always.

Frantz used to have diagrams that showed where to hook up the filters but I don't know if they are still in business.

just because your oil is clean doesnt mean it lubricates as good as when its changed every every2k. the oil breaks down after time. i would never do that to my car.

Hattie, first let me say that I am in complete agreement with you on the benefits of the Frantz for filtering the oil in the 603. However, the installation becomes more difficult than you have stated above. To wit:

1) Where to you get high pressure oil from the oil filter cap? No high pressure oil there to the best of my knowledge.


2) The return line cannot go to the valve cover because it will be above the bottom of the Frantz filter. You don't want the oil to travel uphill while it is draining. It will pool in the bottom of the filter.

The plumbing needs to be further discussed for a successful installation.

http://www.wefilterit.com/ for all who are interested.

does anyone understand this?

Hatterasguy,
Below is an extract from a web site that talks about oil analysis and additive size. As you will note they talk about additive size being in the 4-9 micron range. Thus the Frantz filter will filter out this beneficial additives, and leave your oil very clean but basically useless.

This is but one article. There are many more sources which spell-out the typical size of oil additives. They are all in agreement

If you are interested, the web site address from which I extracted this particular article is: http://www.aggman.com/articles/feb04d.htm


Phil
==========================================

A Quick Guide to Oil Analysis Tests

by Andy Page

Emission spectroscopy is the test used most often in oil analysis. Designed to test for wear particles in engines and for the presence of additives, both of which are typically 4 to 9 microns in size, the test has a maximum particle-size limit of 9 microns. Any particle larger than that will not be detected.

Elements present in a lubricant may be additives, wear particles, or contaminants (see Table 1). Most standard oil analysis test results also include measurements of viscosity and the presence of water or glycol. This standard barrage of tests was originally designed by the U.S. military in the early 1950s and it remains a thorough test for engine lubricants today.

Lets see real world on a 606. Oil tested every 10k miles came back ok, for the last 120k. Engine has 316k on it and is in perfect condition. Adding a quart of oil every change brings the additive level back up. The best way to get the additive's out of a multi weight oil is to do what the Navy does on their subs, run it threw a centrifigul(sp?) Spin it around real fast and everything comes out. However you can only do this with single weight oils. The Navy never needs to change the oil on ships, they clean it. battle ships used to use paper towel rolls to filter their oil. Oil doesn't wear out the additive package does and it gets dirty. The Frantz keeps it clean and adding a quart every 2,500 keeps the additives. I will see if the owner will post maybe make sure I have my facts straight. However I will probably still change my oil, the Frantz filter could compliment the OE one nicely.


Brian Carlton good point this install works well on a 606 I don't know how different the filter is from a 603? I wonder what would be a good spot to tap off of? Their is a lot of room in my engine compartment I can mount the filter as high as need be.

I beleive that we need to adapt a "T" to the oil sending unit to get a proper high pressure oil feed.

With regard to the drain, this is not as easy. Frantz recommends using a self tapping screw that they provide, with a hole down the center, and install it in the oil pan. I'm not real keen on this if it has to be done on the vehicle.
I'd like to find a return oil line, somewhere lower than fenderwell area where the filter is to be mounted, and tee into that.

Take a look at it and see what you think.

I am trying to figure out if the toilet paper is on a roll or is it used toilet paper.... :confused:

Frantz used to have little diagrams showing where to connect all the lines for many different cars. Maybe they have some for MB.

DOES ANYONE REALIZE OIL DOESNT LAST THAT LONG! EVEN IF YOU ADD THE "1 QUART TO REPLENISH ADDITIVES" this type of filter was used in really old cars. before technology! now they have the oil filters we use now. if this was as good as you all clim they would have never stopped using it. remember the old oil bath filters. they worked good. but now we have k&n and mann and all of those that work even better. OR AM I JUST A DUMB TEENAGER THAT DOESNT KNOW ANYTHING?

I'd take toilet paper over a Fram filter :D

I've got a Gulf Coast Filters oil bypass filter (similar to the frantz) on my 617-912 (non turbo 5 cylinder) and after 3400 miles I think it's working fine. These type of filters are used frequently on crew boats in the oil fields without problems, and over the road truckers use them also. TP of suitable size and content can be found easily. Get the "green" TP; ie non bleached/without perfumes. It does not break down and enter the oil system. These filters are not used widely for a good reason- oil company greed. Where would they be if you didn't have to change your oil so often? Without a huge source of revenue, that's where.
Do a google on bypas oil filters
or check
www.gulfcoastfilters.com

William :D

kmaysob you are missing one part of this, oil does not wear out. You can run the same oil in an engine forever as long as the additives are good and it stays clean. The millitary has been doing this for many years. Go take a look at a WW2 Battleship I bet the original oil is still in all of the equipment and is probably still fine.

Paper canister filters are not that great, the reason auto makers use them is they are cheap. Toilet paper is a very good filtering material, and yes it is on a roll. Frantz type filters have probably been around for the better part of the 20th century.

I would like to keep my oil cleaner because 603's like clean oil, also $50 oil changes every 3k get a little costly. However a $50 oil change every 10k-20k miles is down right cheap.

if you want to treat your car like a ww2 ship i say go for it. the most i would let my oil go for is 5k with one of those filters. i figure 50 dollars every 3k isnt that bad considering i could need a new engine if i dont change it frequent enough. or have to replace the timing chain. it will be evident after a few years that you needed to change it.

The gentleman useing this system on his 606 is seeing slightly less than 1 degree of chain stretch every 100k miles.

Do some research- just like anyone, and you'll stop doubting yourself. There is no doubt that regular oil changes with a stock system are what's needed, and those resistant to change will continue to reject anything that contradicts that. Those with an open mind will not out of hand reject new ideas, regardless of how "successful" the past methods have been. Bypass filtering of oil seems to be a "new" idea because people have not heard of it- and they are suspect of it. Can't blame them, but don't be critical without being armed with facts and knowledge. ;)

BTW what's a "300DT"? never heard of/seen that on back of a W123 or in OE mercedes manuals.

i dont doubt myself. as soon as people found out im not in my 20's and 30's they started acting like im a dumb ass and ignored my replies. so i have to type in caps to get peoples attention. that type of filter is nothing new. it was one of the first oil filters around. i showed my science teacher this post today and she agrees with me. as does my dad and everyone else i have told this to. i try alot of things like this too but i can tell you its not as good as you think. he may say that he has it tested and it comes back clean and still good but i doubt it. goodday

Yesterday I had E-mailed Amsoil Oil, a Company that is very well trusted and respected for the high quality Oil that they sell.

Basically, I mentioned this discussion group and had asked their opinion of using a FRANTZ TP filter in a Diesel engine.

In view of Amsoil's answer, I stand partially corrected on my earlier post in which I stated that the additives in the oil are larger than a Micron, and hence will get trapped by the TP Filter.

Below is Amsoil self-explanatory reply to me:

==============================================

Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concerns.

In response to your inquiry, the oil additives will not be filtered out by a sub-micron filter.* The reason why is that they are bonded on a molecular level.* There are “solid” additives, however, that can be filtered out using a sub-micron filter.* These additives may be molybdenum, graphite, Teflon, or aftermarket polymer additives.* The AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils do not contain any of these solid additives, therefore using a sub-micron filter will not be a problem with any of our motor oils.* If anything, it will be a benefit to insure the longevity of the engine and the motor oil used.

There is one caution about using a toilet paper or paper towel media.* They are highly efficient at trapping moisture which will soften and swell the paper media.* This can eventually lead to channeling of unfiltered oil through the media and back into the engine crankcase.

Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns.* As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Darryn Wallace
Technical Service Department

DT- the oil channels and goes thru the filter- not the TP.
Did you make up the DT? or just think that people don't know that domestic W123's were turbo'd in '82 and the wagons in '81?
IMHO using the unofficial "DT" means you believe others don't know the above; you don't know the above; or have decided to add your own non OE monikers to the 300, which others do also but then ultimately confuses people- what's a TD? Turbo Diesel? or Touring Diesel? or wagon How about a 240- is it called a 240DNA? or a W116/126- a 300SDT?
Getting back to the subject- if there is relevent scientific evidence that shows filtering oil down to the 2 micron level hurts engines I'd love for someone to post that finding. To the contrary, there is ample evidence that further filtering of lubricating oil (past the normal stock filtering cabability of 25-30 microns) is beneficial to all marine, off highway and automotive engines.

Oh boy, another oil related thread.... Bottom line is bypass filters have been around for a long time. They work very well and you will find them on large industrial engines where changing the oil can be very expensive. The reason bypass filters haven't caught on in auto use is generally its not the engine that wears out in most cars. Its everything else. Especially so in MB's MB diesels have proven they can go 300K, 400K, 500K etc. with regular oil changes using fairly cheap dino oil. Since most of the population only keeps a car for 100-150K, who needs a bypass filter? If you feel you need one, by all means, go ahead. It has already been shown by other board members that synthetics can last up to 10K, through oil analysis. Pick your poison. RT

That sounds like a very informed answer. Personally, assuming this response is mostly correct, I would not be afraid to run this filter. Water is a non-issue inside the engine - any water will evaporate quickly once the engine is up to temperature. Presumably anyone would change the media in this filter in plenty of time to avoid any possible water damage.

I think I'll keep my oil changed every 3000. :) Not that I'm not open to new ideas but.....

Cheers,

Bill

I think this filter would work well with the oe filter in keeping the oil cleaner. A roll of tp costs what? Maybe a dollar? So changing the tp every 2,500 is pocket change. Even if you don't want to extend drain time, these filters could benifit you.


kmaysob don't get bent out of shape :) I'm 19 to btw.

hatterasguy,
i will agree with you about that. cleaner is better and adding that to the oe would work well. if i were gonna do that i would still change it at the recommended times.

im 16 by the way.

Had to happen. I'm just surprised nobody is suggesting bleeding a little water into the injectors to double the gas mileage.

I gotta say, though, that having seen my share of how well the old stuff worked, I would never put a toilet paper filter in-line with the oil cirulation system of an MB. It's probably like anything else, though, a guy with that level of interest will probably make it work.

And I love the seque, when they say "Later, when I rebuilt the engine..."

just the facts... :D

:) Really the final word on oil changes and whether of not a by-pass filter "works" is an oil analysis done by a reputable company. Oil changes at X miles is a suggestion by the OE that your oil needs changes because other engines' oil needed changing at that time/mileage frame on average. Your particular engine may need more frequent changes, or less frequent- but you are only guessing without a oil analysis- and that is the bottom line mechanically speaking. If a bypass filter, by oil analysis, shows that the oil that's in your engine continues to be within parameters of new oil, then changing the oil seems a moot point. As far as still changing it or installing a bypass filter some of the advantages in the long run are reduced oil/filter costs, oil disposal costs, reduced maintanence costs (timing chain stretch is reduced) and any time associated with these. We run oil analysis on all the large MTU (roughly translated- Mercedes Turbine Union) engines in the vessels I work on. The smallest is 900 HP, the largest is 1930 HP, in the V2000 series- the smallest of MTU engines. When the engines costs exceed $300,000; it is a valuable tool for any diesel mechanic, and the same logic/methods apply to small automotive diesel engine with regards to this discussion.

the fact is that you have worn me out - i told you that other handles were taken when i joined. MB does not use that exact lettering. plenty of other people do. just do a search

isn't that enough for you? hope you're happy dude you won...
please keep on doing what you're doing. u can analyze your oil to your heart's content.
i'm gone. thanks a lot.

[QUOTE=Hatterasguy]Lets see real world on a 606. Oil tested every 10k miles came back ok, for the last 120k. Engine has 316k on it and is in perfect condition. /QUOTE]

Hatterasguy, you need a control to put this statement in perspective. What's the condition of 300K mile 606s that had regular oil and filter changes?

Quite true. I'm sure the million mile MB Diesels don't have additional filters or the million mile claims would have been disputed.

That said, an additional filter shouldn't hurt.

If I were doing this, I'd look for a way to jam open the oil cooler thermostat and have the oil cooler lines service the external filter. It should be a simple matter to fit an external thermostat to keep the oil cooler functional. Of course, who wants to futz with the oil cooler lines?

Sixto
95 S420
87 300SDL

At least it is an oil filter thread and not an oil thread, just don't step over the line.

I may want a tp filter for veg oil.

I worked on boat for a summer and we had to change oil between jobs. The nature of the work was such that we couldn't shut-down to change oil. We were taught to watch the film the the oil developed as it ran down the dipstick to make sure we didn't push our luck too far. Those were 16V71 Detroit Diesels and 6V71 generators.

What sort of work was this boat doing that needed gensets that big? :eek:

I don't think I've seen a boat 120' or smaller that had anything generating electrical power that was significantly bigger than a 2-71...and most of the over-120' boats had something bigger than 16V-71's turning the screws...

The Warden large ships use those for bow/sterm thurster's. :cool:

Sixto I will cut off my arm before I mess with my nice new$$$ oil cooler lines! :D


MTUpower why are you giving Bob a hard time over his handle? The use of the 300DT name is common on the forum, pissing off senior members isn't usually a productive thing.

I've seen 6-71 powered bow thrusters, but nothing bigger (granted, that was on a 180' buoy-tender, which was powered by two EMD train engines, hooked to two gensets, hooked to a big electric motor which directly drives the single screw)...

Their was a show on the History channel or maybe TLC that was on super tankers and other large ships. I am 90% sure that they said 12 and 16 cylinder diesel's were used as thruster engines.

I have also heard of big diesel's being used as generators, although at the moment where escapes me, big factory maybe?

That was a 110' steelhull seismographic survey boat. It was a converted supply vessel. We dragged a sparker off of the stern that set-up the shockwave for the hydrophones to read. At night it looked like underwater lightning. We ran both generators when the sparker was going. No need to wear a life vest on the deck, except to help find the body. They told us if we started up the sparker when the divers below flag was flying we could be charged with a homicide.

This would not surprise me, the bow thruster is doing the work of a tug boat. I have been on tug boats with twin 10' wheels and EMD diesels. That is a lot of push. It will push around a 700' tanker with a fair current running down the river.

Doncha just love these oil-related threads? Look. All things being equal, more filtration is not a bad thing. But I'm here to tell you that I just retired my 1989 Mazda with a 2.2 liter turbocharged engine, with 300,000 miles on it. I retired it for electrical reasons, not mechanical. It was still running fine and pulling full boost. The engine was never opened up except for scheduled timing belt changes at 60K. Original turbo.

Oil was changed at 3K intervals with dino oil. My point is that if you have a good basic design and perform maintenance as recommended by the manufacturer, your engine should last.

Oh yeah, MTUPower guy - the loose translation of MTU is not "Mercedes Turbine Union" - it's "Motor and Turbine Union".

Disclaimer. I work for a diesel engine manufacturer. Not MTU. 10,000 HP is a small to mid size machine for us! And we use them for plenty of generators, not just ships!

Rgds,
Chris W.
'95 E300D

You're right Chris- but that's the tight translation- all you'd have to do is note the spelling changes from german to english. No one would then know the relationship to the mercedes family however, which is why I roughly translated it in this forum to what I did. I'll take the floggings. BTW- I don't work for MTU either, in case anyone thought I did here.
Didn't mean to wear DT out- but don't like being called son when the man would have to be a father at 9 years old to be my dad over something I believe I'm correct on. Heard the producer of a ESPN fishing show I was working on say "it's not my show, it's not your show- it's THE show" It's not my idea, it's not your idea- it's THE idea. I don't (as others perhaps do) get emotional or feel slighted over inanimate objects. Sorry DT....
now will someone start a thread about the correct tranny fluid to use in winter or something?
:p

Before you do the Frantz.... Take a look at what th eCumminsd guys run. Amsoil makes a sweet kit. I don't feel like running additional oil lines and such on my NA 606, but if I had a turbo, I would have setup one of the AMSoil kits in a heartbeat.

http://www.amsoil.com/bypassfilters/2001dodge_cummins/


Toilet paper is for my A$$, not my MB diesel kitten :D