Pulled in at dealer service and had two wealthy patrons circling my car - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

willrev · #1 03-23-2005, 06:20 AM

I really got a kick out of what happened yesterday.

I pulled into the dealer service counter to get my four wheel alignment done and was sitting outside on a bench waiting with my two year old daughter for my wife to pick me up.

I was getting my daughter's stuff out of the trunk and some guy waiting on his new car being brought out from service walks over to mine to check out the German road rallye badges. When he pulled off, I saw the German tags on the back of his car. I think he was German.

After he left, over walks this well dressed, apparently well off looking patron driving a W140 to talk to me about my old 300sd. He compliments my car and starts to talk about how he has been fortunate to own these cars for 30 years. He has two W140s and had brought in his wife's SL to be serviced.

He says, "Now this was real German engineering! Not the hybrid crap Mercedes is now of German engineering and Japanese bells and whistles." He went on to say that at least this car had real wire and not fiber optic cable. He said, "You ever tried to find a nick in fiber optic cable?"

He talked to my daughter a minute and headed off. I guess the moral of the story is that newer is not always better, even if you can afford it.

tomm9298 · #2 03-23-2005, 06:40 AM

Rated the Korean Hyundai as being more reliable than any new MB. But, of course that is a stripped down econo-box. MB does have some current QC issues.

Pete Burton · #3 03-23-2005, 08:15 AM

I think MB reached a pinnacle in design in the 80's, sort of like Chrysler in the early 60's and Cadillac in the 50's, where they seemed at one point to get things really cohesive and reliable. Of course, all companies have made progress since then, but the focus is on other things rather than the best car they could make even if it cost a bunch more

bodyart27 · #4 03-23-2005, 09:31 AM

The latest Automobile has a pretty article on MB quality. Basically said the W140 was the last of the overengineered cars (I gathered that when they said it came out over budget and late to market as it was created by engineers). Then they go on to say later MBs were built to a price, not to a engineering standard. They point out that gizmo-envy / gizmo-one upmanship with other brands have bit them in the rear.

I must admit the glitches on my CLK55 confirm this. Love the power of the '55, but I love my 300SD for it's pure mechanical robustness as well!

Dervman · #5 03-23-2005, 10:37 AM

One of the reasons that I bought my W126 300SDL is that it is (along with the 350SD-L) probably the last of the M-B S-Class Diesels that were practical for DIY maintenance. The W140 is a nice car and was still built by engineers and not bean-counters, but it is overly complex for most home mechanics and the cost of some parts is mind-bending compared to a W126.
I have worked on many cars in my time including BMW's and Porsches, but I think the W126 is probably the best engineered of them all.

The newer cars are OK and have lots of convenience & gizmo features, but I certainly wouldn't want to be paying to keep them on the road after 18 years and 200k+ miles.

bodyart27 · #6 03-23-2005, 01:06 PM

One last thing the article mentioned which seemed to make a lot of sense was that Mercedes used to design / engineer a lot of their sub-assemblies (transmissions etc). Now they use more suppliers. The article said the japaneese auto manufacturers have more experience using this model / better relationships with their suppliers and the german maufacturers are just now getting better at it...

I agree the W140 is a huge step up in complexity compared to the W126, but there is something I just like about that car - probably the double wall glass and the car's visual heft that makes me think "vault-like."

aklim · #7 03-23-2005, 01:28 PM

What is wrong with the gizmos as far as DIY goes? I can still DIY it because I have a scanner that I use for all my other cars. By law, you have to have OBDII codes advailable so what is the difference?

bodyart27 · #8 03-23-2005, 01:54 PM

I was more thinking of the "Controller Area Network (CAN)" that I think MB started using after '95. There might be hacks or tools that allow you to trouble shoot this system vs. a trip to the dealer. Just something that your average DIY'er won't have in their trusty toolbox.

http://www.can.bosch.com/

aklim · #9 03-23-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodyart27

I was more thinking of the "Controller Area Network (CAN)" that I think MB started using after '95. There might be hacks or tools that allow you to trouble shoot this system vs. a trip to the dealer. Just something that your average DIY'er won't have in their trusty toolbox.

http://www.can.bosch.com/

That the one that controls things besides the engine function like the presence of a CD changer or Phone? Sounds like when FI first came out. People were screaming that they would have to pay big bucks to fix it. It was true when it first came out but I think it has settled down a little when people started getting the hang of working with FI. I wouldn't want to go back to carburators. I try not to fool with a carb. If I had to, I'd farm it out to some old timer who does. Besides, I enjoy just turning the key and getting it to start in whatever temp it is and not have to pull the choke and dance with a chicken on my head at midnight to get it to start in the morning. They warm up faster and have no issues when it comes to running perfromance engines. I know someone with a carb that has to switch carbs in the winter and summer to get max power out of it. Much easier with FI to change pulse width and spark advance tables AT A CERTAIN POINT instead of with carbs.

aklim · #10 03-23-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willrev

He says, "Now this was real German engineering! Not the hybrid crap Mercedes is now of German engineering and Japanese bells and whistles." He went on to say that at least this car had real wire and not fiber optic cable. He said, "You ever tried to find a nick in fiber optic cable?"

He talked to my daughter a minute and headed off. I guess the moral of the story is that newer is not always better, even if you can afford it.

A lot of old timers used to say the same thing about Fuel Injected cars. You;d get the "Bah, Humbug" when you mentioned an 80s car with FI. Remember the automatic transmission when it was first introduced? People hated it. It would break often and be expensive to fix, etc, etc. Now the reliability is up and most cars are auto. Old timers would just scoff at the foolishness of the "young ones" in getting a troublesome auto. You'd hear how it would never last and that the auto tranny would soon be obsolete because of all the issues. Today, you still hear the old timers tell you that to be fast, you'd need a stick. Well, a lot of drag cars are using autos that built properly, would hold the power in spite of what the nay-sayers were spouting. Same thing with FI. It was too complex (for them anyways), have too many parts and wires, etc, etc. More things to break and you will never keep the running for long either. Well, things changed.

Newer is not always better. However, neither is older. It depends on the circumcisions.

Dervman · #11 03-23-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What is wrong with the gizmos as far as DIY goes? I can still DIY it because I have a scanner that I use for all my other cars. By law, you have to have OBDII codes advailable so what is the difference?

The codes will only help with fault diagnosis PROVIDED the computer system is working as it should. Over time the multiple computers in modern cars will degrade as their hardware ages and then you are stuck with computer module replacement until you luck-out and find the right one. Servicing the computers will also be a problem as very often chip manufacturers obsolete chips long before they fail in service, so when you try to get a replacement you are SOL.

The basic vehicle hardware will still be repairable but all the electronics are going to be a real PITA 10+ years down the road. I work with industrial electronics, so I have nothing against high-tech, but the idea of paying a tech 9 hours labour at dealer rates just to re-programme the computers in a BMW 7-Series once they are out of warranty is just plain scary. M-B's current products are no better from a servicability viewpoint and I predict these cars values will drop like stones once they start to exhibit electronic problems.

Just my $0.02

aklim · #12 03-23-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dervman

The codes will only help with fault diagnosis PROVIDED the computer system is working as it should. Over time the multiple computers in modern cars will degrade as their hardware ages and then you are stuck with computer module replacement until you luck-out and find the right one. Servicing the computers will also be a problem as very often chip manufacturers obsolete chips long before they fail in service, so when you try to get a replacement you are SOL.

The basic vehicle hardware will still be repairable but all the electronics are going to be a real PITA 10+ years down the road. I work with industrial electronics, so I have nothing against high-tech, but the idea of paying a tech 9 hours labour at dealer rates just to re-programme the computers in a BMW 7-Series once they are out of warranty is just plain scary. M-B's current products are no better from a servicability viewpoint and I predict these cars values will drop like stones once they start to exhibit electronic problems.

Just my $0.02

How would that be a reality? Where all systems fail at once? I don't follow. You should be able to diagnose it without having to do trial and error. I mean, take my PC for instance. I should be able to diagnose what is wrong with it without replacing every circuit till I hit paydirt. How would the car be different?

That is what the old timers have said time and again about EFI. It will be a nightmare to diagnose, how will you know which part failed without changing things till you get it right, etc, etc. I have dealt with some indies that fix cars by trial and error too. I avoid them like the plague.

Johnhef · #13 03-23-2005, 08:59 PM

Oh boy I can tell you CAN diagnosis is fun (!!!!)

to the guy with the CLK55- check your drains under the hood! those cars (and W220 S class) are known for getting them clogged and then flooding out the right side of the car... right where one of the main CAN blocks is. Water + CAN = major problems.

ask me how I know this

whunter · #14 03-23-2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How would that be a reality? Where all systems fail at once? I don't follow. You should be able to diagnose it without having to do trial and error. I mean, take my PC for instance. I should be able to diagnose what is wrong with it without replacing every circuit till I hit pay dirt. How would the car be different?

That is what the old timers have said time and again about EFI. It will be a nightmare to diagnose, how will you know which part failed without changing things till you get it right, etc, etc. I have dealt with some indies that fix cars by trial and error too. I avoid them like the plague.

The sensors, computers and wires are durability tested until they pass ten year/100K; then they begin removing material until it fails as close to ten year/100K as is possible.
I have seen many massive system failures in the field, and there is only one fix, replace everything broken.
I have been involved with far too many cars where module #1. dies on January/1, module #2. dies on January/15, module #3. dies on February/3, etc, etc, etc, until almost every module and sensor on the car has been replaced, every component was tested and proved bad, a total system test was done after every repair.
I see a massive system failure many times every year, all are over ten year and/or 100K.
The suppliers are giving the automakers what they ask for, "NOTHING" more, and they are getting better at planned obsolescence engineering every year.
All of the cars made today are disposable, and have that design/engineered into them.

aklim · #15 03-23-2005, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

The sensors, computers and wires are durability tested until they pass ten year/100K; then they begin removing material until it fails as close to ten year/100K as is possible.
I have seen many massive system failures in the field, and there is only one fix, replace everything broken.
I have been involved with far too many cars where module #1. dies on January/1, module #2. dies on January/15, module #3. dies on February/3, etc, etc, etc, until almost every module and sensor on the car has been replaced, every component was tested and proved bad, a total system test was done after every repair.
I see a massive system failure many times every year, all are over ten year and/or 100K.
The suppliers are giving the automakers what they ask for, "NOTHING" more, and they are getting better at planned obsolescence engineering every year.
All of the cars made today are disposable, and have that design/engineered into them.

That I can accept. What I was questioning was DERVMAN's statement which gave me the impression that when they fail, the fail to the point that no diagnosis is possible and you have to replace stuff till by luck you run into the solution.