I think the recomended fitting for Freeze 12 is a garden hose fitting. :D





Just kidding.

Yep.........that's what I figured.........thanks Greg.

Yes, there are different fittings for ALL alternative refrigerants.

Regardless of the REASON that these fittings were made to be required, it is STILL a violation of FEDERAL law to convert a motor vehicle to an alternative refrigerant without using the correct fitting for that refrigerant. This is clearly spelled out in the EPA regulations and if I remember correctly is on the 609 test.

I sure would not want to try to explain to a Federal judge that the reason I did not abide by Federal law is that the law was conceived to aid a certain group. I don't think that very many attorneys would recommend that as a viable defense.

Best of luck,

Larry, Are you saying that the freeze12 fittings are different from the 134a fittings ?
Or that all alternative refrigerants ( as a group ) have a different fitting from R12 ?

I did not say it was not a technical violation of federal law. I'm just stating the intent of the law and that a DIY'er is not likely to have issues with their local US attorney unless they are selling their services or egging them on. As a courtesy though you should follow the regulations for other's sake.

You know what would be really cool? If one of you guys who thinks this pictorial is incorrectly done take the time to put a similar operation the correct way.
I am absolutely what one would call a 'noob DIYer' and this conflicting information is rather maddening.
I do, however, appreciate the informed and impassioned debate. :sun_smile

Stockdad. I think most of us agree that what Giant did is acceptable for a DIY'er and a great presentation. Actually he used recovery equipment for the r-134a which most of us DIY'ers will not do. His pictorial is excellent. I think everyone also agrees that it is a bad idea to mix refrigerants. If you are going to change the refrigerant then evacuate, refresh(flush system and change drier) and change it.

People stating the letter of the law for EPA is a lot like the IRS. If you talked to 10 different tax lawyers or environmental lawyers you would get 10 different opionions on what is or is not legal. The 609 regulations are to make it a challenge for DIY'ers to get r-12(I got my certification and r-12 to do it the more conventional way) and to encourage shops to use good practices. However I have never heard of a serious prosecution and I know there are mvac and hvac shops who undoubtly violate these regulations. The regulations are more to make the tree huggers in this country and europe feel good.

That being said I am not offering legal advice. I am just stating common sense. If you want to be safe always CYA.

Stockdad.... I am on a very slow dialup and have problems getting all of his pictures to load... and if they do we are talking about 15 minutes plus...
He was going great all the way to where his R12 tank was empty and instead of getting the R12 to replace it he chose the Freeze12...

But for the benefit of " onlookers" to a site.... I do think it was important for me or someone to throw up a red flag about that choice..... it left the impression that ... and they actually say it on the site... (hoping that the further implications which go with those words will influence people...) ........." direct replacement for R12 "....
Too easy for those who have not studied the situation to take that to mean ' exact replication of physical properties' ... which it is not...

People who know me and my 240 know that I have been planning on doing a complete instruction thread concerning fixing my AC.... but it turned into a bigger project once Dmorrision posted the thread about how dirty the fins inside his evaporator were... which I immediately decided was a necessary part of doing my AC correctly.... then farm stuff kept happening....It is still on my list....

I am not offering legal advice either. I am only paraphrasing what I read in the EPA rules. It is very clear.

Also, there is NOTHING wrong with the pictorial. It is EXCELLENT IMHO. There are only two issues as related to the selected refrigerant that have been debated here.

Have a great day,

Stockdad,
concerning this quote :
"and this conflicting information is rather maddening."

What information do you (still ) consider conflicting ?
Perhaps we can direct you to outside sources which you will trust.

All along Diesel Giant has said that R12 is best.... that he would have used it if he had still had some in his tank.... so really we are not talking about which is best... only how high or low he set the bar with regards to abandoning the R12 and slapping in something he could get hold of easier...

That's rediculous. That's like saying the purpose of a drivers test is to make it difficult to get a drivers license.

You obviously didn't take the test and prefer to "challenge" your self in different ways to break the law and obtain refrigerants illegally.

Danny

LMAO. I took the test and read the regulations but I filtered them with common sense. Insults are unbecoming and actually it should be more difficult to get a license and if the fed was serious about the environment it would be more of a challenge to get a 609 certification or drivers license.

I have taken all sorts of State and Federal tests in my life... almost all of them are designed to make sure the person can READ and understand the INSTRUCTIONS (typically on the side of the can)... for instance...
This is more to make sure if they catch you violating the rules you have no excuse for not having followed them.

The idea that an OPEN BOOK TEST is designed to impede anyone is really funny...

Quite right but if they were serious about these regulations they would have restricted it to licensed/accredited mechanics.

I want to stop the flame wars. I just wanted to make this point that almost anyone who does a DYI a/c job is probably in technical violation of a 609 rule. Just like anyone who fills out their taxes may make a minor mistake and violate IRS code. I do not advocate illegal venting of refrigerant(especially r-12). Even though I don't buy all the science I would take it to a pro to be recaptured.

The EPA is not going to come after you if you have the wrong connections on your A/C system. However a garage could sue you or report you to the US Attorney if he evacuates the system and you contaminate his recovery equipment.

Always be safe and always use common sense! That is all I have to say

Welll....If you have soooo much common sense why are you reading threads titled "Pictorial on how to fix your A/C system and get 38 degrees at vent!"

I hate to put you on my ignore list. I may miss it if you add something valuable to the discussion but such is life. *sigh* My apologies. His comments speak for himself. Apparently he does not understand that thermodynamic systems are less common sense then law.

Well laws should be common sense.

Hey guys, I'm just trying to sort all this stuff out. My new 82 300D *has* AC, but I'm not sure if the compressor is actually working. Furthermore, though the engine does seem to 'bog' down when I engage the AC, the air is, decidely, not cool. I'm at a point where I'm not sure what coolant was used, so I'm trying to glean enough information here to do it myself the correct way. In no way am I questioning anyone's intent, education, qualifications, etc.-I appreciate ALL of your comments. I just want want to do it the 'right' way.
Btw, I 'spose I could be catagorized as one of those 'tree huggers' that believes in the proper disposal of hazardous/toxic/nasty liquids.
Thanks for putting up with an excited, yet frustrated, MB noob.

Ok I'll stop the flame wars. Even though it is a lot of fun.
I hope noone actually took anything I said seriously.
That would be the saddest part of all!

Danny

Tree huggers are cool as long as they aren't bitter :) A completely proper job is not possible without professional expensive tools or a professional shop to help you.

Hey Diesel JIm you there??

"anyone's intent, education, qualifications, etc.-I appreciate ALL of your comments. I just want want to do it the 'right' way."

I did not take it that you were calling into question those things... on any site you are new to ...or the subject is new.... the typing on the screen pretty much looks the same no matter who types it... it is often hard to figure out who deserves to be believed ( sometimes I don't believe myself ).... and then sometimes even those people have small gaps with respect to certain subjects...

If you will state as close as you can what you don't feel is ' answered' we will try to fix that....

I have been mechanicing about 35 years... I remember how hard it was before the Internet to get information.... maybe now the pendulum has swung the other way... and Too Much Information is available... ( just kidding)... more facts, better decisions....

Test Project
 

Well, the compressor on my '85 is out, and my system is in need of repair. I have a digital camera and could take extensive pictures of anyone willing to help me with the project! :D :D :D :D :D

Pretty Slick Jimmy....
and Subtle to boot....

Unique fittings for each different refrigerant. See the section titled "Unique Fittings" in this page of the IMACA study guide: http://www.imaca.org/sg-14.htm

Each new refrigerant must be used with a unique set of fittings to prevent the accidental mixing of different refrigerants.

My interpretation of the regulations was right on. It is obvious I read the regulations. :) thanks for posting the link

Diesel Jim, If Brian's statement that Freeze12 is 80 percent 134a... then what is the possibility that it simply uses the 134a fittings ?

Rick, that was an excellant link.... I could have copied and pasted much of it instead of composing answers in this thread...

You know the sad part of this whole thread is that I put it up to help people. I am getting alot of hair splitting and bashing because I used Freeze 12.

Read my lips. Yes I would use Freeze 12 again, if you don't like it, don't use it. :pukeface:

I would have used R-12 if I had it, but was not worth waiting for. Bottom line is my A/C is 38 degrees, is yours????

Soon. :D

Yep, I am getting 38 degree vent temp and it would be lower if the climate control system weren't regulating it at 38.

I do wish that you wouldn't be given a hard time about this. You went to a lot of trouble to share your pictures etc. with everyone and it is appreciated. I hope I did not come off as critical. I did feel that it would be helpful to point out that the R4 is not a good candidate for rebuild, but sometimes you can get a good rebuilt unit.

I have made my opinion about alternative refrigerants known here on mshop. I will not use them for a multitude of reasons, but my goal is not to get in your business if you choose to use them. My goal is for everyone to understand the pros and cons involved. I also like to ensure that people know the law on such things. If they know the law and still choose to break it, that's totally the individuals choice. I won't call the law on anyone.

Good job on the writeup,

I was not really speaking to you Larry. I am going to try and get the vent temps to around 36 degrees. No not by more freon but with a few tricks that I MAY share if it works. However, given the bashing I got I may just keep future mods to myself.

Well I gotta go work on a Dodge automatic. :eek:

diesel giant, I think 38 would be about as low as you could go before freezing your evaporator. I can't remember what my second cousin said about the relation to evap temp and vent temps. I would say 38 is a good mark to stick with.

Thanks
David

Share them with us...we love your writeup if not your choice of refrgerants.

Diesel Giant, I was quite interested in all of your writeups...I think I need all of them....

You keep linking to mbz.org for parts, why not here at the Shop where you are posting?

Also, you linked there to get the vacuum valve lever but I can't find that part anywhere on the website...am I missing something?

Thanks for taking the time to document all of the work you did.

I agree with you. If the Freeze-12 is doing the job, why argue with success.

Oh, and BTW, for all his talk, ask Greg what his vent temperature is on the 240D. :D :D :eek:

I am not an expert but I would guess not. Since the purpose of the regulation is to facilitate easier refrigerant recycling you would want to keep 134a out of a system as pure as possible. The other 20% would have to be gotten out by a distilling or chemical process to get pure 134a. However you could recycle freeze-12 that is kept in only freeze-12 container and get freeze-12 by just removing oil and not refrigerant items.

Sometimes I am not anal enough but I am much more of a pragmatist. Not an anarchist. Unfortunately we had someone butt in here and I got a little ticked at him. Apologies to the rest of the posters. I should have been a lawyer except I can't stand the B.S.

The purpose for each individual refrigerant using unique fittings is an attempt to prevent contaminating recovered refrigerant. This is not usually a problem for the DIYer because they usually simply violate the law and vent it. It is a HUGE problem for those of us with recovery machines because if refrigerant is contaminated, we not only lose the refrigerant but have to pay big bucks to have it disposed of.

On the 124 car the automatic climate control system regulates the vent temp to keep it no lower than 38 degrees. Unless you do something on the sensor and control side of things you will not get it below 38. As pointed out by a previous poster, taking it below this mark runs a high risk of freezing the evaporator anyway.

Good luck,

Larry said it much better than I could but he is correct. This is the reason why I said you only have to worry about the feds if you contaminate someone elses refrigerant because you took it there without the appropriate fittings and warnings and they mixed it with other refrigerant. You can seperate refrigerants but it is different equipment. It also said that somewhere in the 609 study guide.

On the site I mentioned earlier it showed " Freeze12" fittings which sure looked like just 134a fittings...

This site :

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00031.htm

has some which do look different....

Brian, How about a closeup picture of your fittings ?

Hard to tell. the shrader valve could be threaded differently? It is supposed to be unique if it is SNAP compliant

http://autorefrigerants.com/old.gif

Sl-9050 High Side Service Adapter - Old to New
Allows temporary conversion of old style Freeze 12 high side fittings to the new style. 7/16-16 Female Flare x 7/16-14 LH Male Flare. Packed 1 per case.


7/16-14 LH Male Flare. I suspect this is a different size and thread count from a 134a

134a is 1/2

1/16 difference

I had a question about all you that are so worried about breaking the law with freon. ( And I dont advociate breaking the law)

Do you ever exceed the speed limit??? That is also breaking the law.

If you are going to be a super stickler (and we all should) in one area of life, then make it in all areas.

Something to ponder

Diesel to some on here bending environmental law is a capital crime. I am with you though

Freee 12 comes with fittings that look similar to R12 but are a different size. So, if you use the materials theu give you with their charge kit you should be ok. I used some tonight to top my dad's 300E off since it was converted 2 years ago to r134. :pukeface: It works now so now I have to see where it's leaking from, tons of fun here.

Thanks
David

Good point! wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

I guess I broke the law for about an hour and a half tonight. :rolleyes:
New LH30's. Man those are nice tires!

Danny

Oh my now go and do 2 free oil changes for your neighbors for your crime. Also do you know that sodemy is illegal in Georgia and other states. :pukeface:

Anybody else break the law. :eek:

Diesel Giant,

From what I understand, the only way you can get lower than 38 is by turning (screwing) the evap. temp cut switch down. Lower temps will cause more moisture in your vent ducts. I love your web site. I just looked at my vacuum levers last night (thanks to you) and they were both completley shot. Thanks for you help.

Well I am glad it helped you. That is why I post all the stuff. Looking at pics is much better than just reading about it.

Thanks for the information on the website. Good job, keep it up. I'll be ordering new vacuum levers from Fastlane. The levers are hard to find in the catalog, since they are listed under Diesel Injection :confused: I had to do a search on lever to find them.

Looking forward to more DIY articles from DG.