"Lower temps will cause more moisture in your vent ducts."

No... it will mean less moisture in your vent ducts... the lower the temperature the more will be dropped into the evaporator drain tube and not get to the vent ducts..
Then at some point right at freezing ( determined by relative humidity/barometric pressure, etc ) that moisture will start freezing on the fins pretty much cutting off all your air to the vents...
As long as you don't hit freezing "the colder the better"...

So does this mean if you break the law speeding, that it is no different to break the law by murdering or raping? Violation of different laws brings forth different levels of punishment.

As I have said in previous posts, I don't care if you break the law or not as long as I or my family are not victims of your action. I ONLY point it out because many folks don't know that they are breaking the law. Some folks like to know when they are, but then I suppose some folks don't care whether or not they break the law.

It's all your business. I'm not judging, just informing.

Have a great day,

:D :eek: :D

Nearly 90 degrees today and the air is still so cold I have to turn the fan down from high or I get frostbite. :vbac47679

I know exactly what you mean. I made about a 70 mile run with ambient in the high nineties and had to start pointing vents away from me.

Have a great day,

Wish mine would do that...Larry, any possiblity you could help me get it to that point? I could drive to Sumner, it's only a couple hours from Longview, where I might be living within the next month or two. It's currently running R134a (no comments please, I'm not the one who converted it), but I would have no problem going back to R12.

ridinsmooth,

I'd like to help, but I just don't have any time to take in outside work. I work at home now and the kids are now gone so I'm using the time to take back up a hobby of mine from my childhood. This hobby takes all my free time, but I'm having a blast.

There are lots of good auto a/c shops in Texas. One of the very best is McCains Auto in North Dallas near the TI plant at 635 and 75. I am almost on the river, over 100 miles from Longview. Richardson is probably as close to Longview as my place.

If you're handy as a DIY'er, you could do most of the work yourself and have most any shop evacuate and charge the system once you're done. We can tell you the reverse conversion procedure here and guide you through it.

Good luck with it,

Thanks
 

Thanks Larry, just having you offer to talk me through the procedure is more than enough. Once I have some time and extra money, I'll probably start tackling it myself. I think just to make it easier, I'm gonna try to go with Dave's procedure, and install a parallel flow condensor. I'm probably going to wind up running it on 134 just because most shops don't want to touch R12 anymore. My first project for it however, will be finding the leaks, so I know what needs to be replaced. I've been reading a lot about AC's and am amazed at the wealth of knowledge available here on the forum. My big question is, as long as it's not leaking, can the evaporator simply be flushed out or should I replace it? Thanks to everyone for the help I've already gotten and for any help I'll get in the future.

ridinsmooth,

It is very simple and only costs $15 to take the epa test and get certified so that you can buy R12. I bought some a few months ago for $14.06 per pound. Statistically systems converted to 134 are short lived. I would highly recommend that you simply fix it, whatever it takes and use R12. You can't buy a PF condensor for what the R12 costs.

Your car is not one that is known for the leaky evaporator. Simply flush it and use it unless there is a known leak.

Good luck,

You may want to pull a vacuum on the system first to see if you have any major leaks needing repair. Using R-12 or Freeze 12 is really the best way to go. You will be MUCH happier than using that toxic junk 134a.

Jbaj007 said above that Freeze12 is 80 Percent 134a...
So that narrows it down to R12 for a long happy life....

Freeze 12 is MOSTLY 134, with another component plus a tiny bit of flammables thrown in for kicks. So how is it less toxic?

Have a great day,

:pukeface:

No Freeze 12 is really amonia and highly flamable agent orange and DDT mixed in. :rolleyes:

Or is it, methane and chlorine gas suspended in an aquous solution or nitrodiphosophene. :eek:

No, maybe a solution of methalethelkeyatone with a good measure of phosophene with hydrogenated peanut oil.

No, maybe a fluid component of hydro cracking in a gas of ozone depleting diazanonefloromethane :eek:

Oh I dont know....but is sure does work good. :sun_smile

Still getting perfect cooling with 38 degrees at the vent in 90's outside temp.

I think next time I will use propane, it cools better and reduces compressor head pressure over 22%. Making a longer lasting compressor.

But the best substance is by far ammonia. Super heat transfer properties and low head pressure. Makes for some cold temps at the evaparator.

My 560 was converted to Freeze 12 exactly 3 years ago and is blowing ice cold even in city driving. I don't see anything bad with it, knock on wood.

Glad to see Freeze 12 is still blowing ice cubes! No suprises there.

Remember necessity is the mother of invention :P

I guess all the saber rattlers dont want to hear that something other than R-12 or toxic 134a is actually working.

So you consider your Freeze 12 that is mostly 134 not to be toxic, when you admit that 134 IS toxic? Very interesting logic.

Freeze 12 along with many other alternative refrigerants will indeed provide great cooling. That is not the issue. The issues are much more complex and far reaching than that.

To begin with very few shops have recovery equipment for the stuff and run the risk of contaminating an entire tank of otherwise reusable refrigerant. Additionally due to lubricant circulation problems and often higher head pressures, converted systems statistically last about two years before other major problems ensue.

You don't worry about Freeze 12 in a recovery system because you plan to service the car yourself? Will you REALLY own the car forever? At some point, a system without correct fittings or markings will most likely end up in some poor guys shop that does not know what refrigerant is in it. This is some guy that is trying to make a living and buy groceries and shoes for the baby just like everybody else. He is the poor guy that stands to lose 30 or more pounds of refrigerant PLUS pay a disposal fee.

Go ahead and run the stuff and keep cool. Statistics indicate that you are shortening the life of your a/c system and you have no obligation whatsoever to worry about anyone else that might bear the grief at a later time. The heck with them! They're on their own! That's their problem! I'll deal with my problems and they can deal with theirs!

Have a great day,

I stand behind LarryBible and Leathermang on this......as they have explained there are many reasons NOT to use the "Mixes" or "Blends" and very little reason to use them.

I am no expert on the subject but they have convinced me.

Larry Freeze 12 is NOT 134a. So all your following logic is null and void.

Have a nice day. :pukeface:

"Larry Freeze 12 is NOT 134a. So all your following logic is null and void."--DieselGiant

This is so easy for others to check... that I can not believe you would keep saying it.... except for the harrassment value.

http://www.robinair.com/opmans/mvacsnap.pdf

http://www.autobodypro.com/safety/articles/0031.htm

http://hostingprod.com/@aa1car.com/library/tr497.htm

http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6000.pdf

Diesel Giant,

It's time for you to do some homework. Freeze 12 consists of mostly 134, and another refrigerant that I don't recall. You can find this in one of the EPA documents.

Here is a link for you: http://www.macsw.org/macs.asp?mfurl=certify.html

After clicking on the link, download the Self Study Certification and training manual and go to page 23. It indicates Freeze 12 to be 80% 134 and 20% 142B. I have seen somewhere else in the past where it was a small portion of a flammable like isobutane, but it is not shown that way in this chart. There may be more than one blender of the stuff.

As a friendly recommendation, doing a little research for facts before making such statements as you have made in this thread will save you some embarrassment.

Have a great day,

Simple rule of thumb: Trust, but verify.

I've gotten a lot of good information off this forum, but I have also been given some bad. Just take the extra time to check it out and don't always rely on the number of posts.

When we realize we have posted some information that we later find to be in error we ought admit it and to do the responsible thing - go back and corrected/editted it. People are going to be reading these posts for years.

pwogaman makes a good point. It is very difficult to troubleshoot over the internet. Any time you are looking for help, provide as much accurate information as you can and always keep in mind that troubleshooting is a fallable process. By giving as much good info as possible about your problem, you up the chances of getting a meaningful response from someone. Even those who post incorrect information are not doing it with malicious intent.

That said, if someone is not confident in the recommendation they offer, it would probably be best to refrain from responding. In the five plus years I've been posting here, I'm sure I've handed out some bad information, but I was trying to help and thought that I was on the right track at the time.

I don't think anyone here would intentionally hand out bad information but none of us know everything, although there are a few pros here that come pretty close.

Good luck,

The lack of sufficient good info is the fundamental problem. This occurs very frequently. In an attempt to troubleshoot a vibration in the front end, there can be at least 10 good possibilites for the cause. When all you get is the fact that the "front end has a shimmy" and "what do you think the reason is", it's really not possible to troubleshoot this situation. All you can do is to start posing additional questions in an attempt to narrow the possibilites down.

The alternative, which I see quite often, is for everyone to chime in as to what the possible problem "could be". Everyone is perfectly correct, of course, however, this shotgun approach is basically useless to the individual posing the question.

These machines are relatively complex and, if internet troubleshooting is to be successful in any manner, more information is typically necessary from the requestor.

Mine got fixed today
 

My 1982 300sd air cond. got fixed today. I put in a new accumulator/dryer and a push button control unit and had the dealer evac and recharge. I drove the hour home (50 miles) with the air full blast and coldest setting. When I got home, my hands were numb from cold and I had chill bumps. No kidding. I think it's colder than 38 degrees. It was 98 degrees outside here today with 98% humidity.

How about that for cold. Sorry I could not do it myself. I didn't have the evac equipment or a way to borrow it.

willrev,

When it comes to summertime in the heat, it doesn't matter if you do it yourself or not. A/C has gotten to be mandatory equipment these days.

You can get a dial thermometer for about $5 at that auto supply. Put one in the vent and see what the vent temp is. I don't know what model you have, but if it is an MB with climate control, it is most likely 38 degrees or so. The climate control system won't let it get lower than that to prevent evaporator freeze up.

Stay cool,

Brian,

You are so right. In addition to what you said, often people will offer as a the solution whatever they found to be the problem on their own car if the symptoms were even remotely similar. As you say this isn't precise, but in their own way, they're just trying to help.

What can be a problem for the person asking the question is when the person offering the answer words it in such a way as to make the person think that their experience is just the only possible solution.

It's hard for us all on mshop to keep the wheat separated from the chaff.

Have a great day,

:musicbooh :musicband :nos:

Come now dont be scared of freeze 12. Even the precious diesel you fill up with everyday is a "blend".

Well for that matter R-12 is a blend.

The proof is in the vent so to speak.

I tell you all what. Since everyone is SO worried about me using Freeze 12 in the old benz. If someone one will send me 2.6lbs of R-12 I will be gald to properly recycle the Freeze back into its 30lb container and charge-r-up with ole R-12. I am being serious. If you have 3 1lb cans and deem that it is that serious, and you loose sleep over it, I will gladly take your R-12 and install it.

Now we will see how important it is to the "watchdogs" if they send me the R-12. :deal:

Honestly, I don't believe the "watchdogs" give a $hit what is in your system. In fact they are probably perfectly fine with it because the system is performing exactly as it was designed to perform.

The concern is simply the future addition of Freeze-12 and/or the evacuation of the fluid if and when you need new parts in the system.

Nobody can argue with your individual success. The 38° vent temperature confirms this.

We have said before you can do what you want with your car...

What is at stake is the advise to people who may not know that there are other considerations... That is why Larry and I stay in the fight...

If you want R12 it is easy to get on Ebay... that is where I got the 7 cans I own...

I have never seen anyone who could mix up so many concepts in one thread.

Thank you, Diesel Giant, for the nice write up and the pictorial on "how to fix your A/C system"
Just ignore that "leathermang". He always bashes people.

Using the truth to " Bash"....
 

"Larry Freeze 12 is NOT 134a. So all your following logic is null and void."--DieselGiant

This is so easy for others to check... that I can not believe you would keep saying it.... except for the harrassment value.

http://www.robinair.com/opmans/mvacsnap.pdf

http://www.autobodypro.com/safety/articles/0031.htm

http://hostingprod.com/@aa1car.com/library/tr497.htm

http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6000.pdf

So, what happened to your "134 is toxic" argument?

BTW, Brian is right in saying that we are glad that your system is running cold.

Have a great day,

Still waiting for someone to take me up on my offer????


Yes 134a is toxic sludge. :pukeface:

Deforms babies and gives people the 3rd eye.

Well, it looks like as far back as May of 2002 you were a fan of Freeze12... when you addressed Larry concerning one of his posts....
Now we show Diesel Giant to be in the category with Redfox and Duracool.... ... and you jump in for support.... this is great software...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve300
Registered User Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 51

To: Larry Bible

According to the following web site, it claims Freez 12 is non-flammable and contains no CFC's.

http://www.freeze12.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------

The principal reason for not using Freeze12 or any other blend is the problem of finding shops with dedicated recovery equipment for them... you do not want to contaminate their equipment.... if you have the correct fittings then they will instantly recognize they can't work on your system...

I love my cold A/C! No other shop will be working on my A/c. I am the shop.

Still waiting for a generous donation of 2.6lbs of R-12 so this thread will take a different turn.

Q
 

Diesel Giant,

I am very glad that you are so confident that you will live forever and will own your car for the same period of time.

I think Brian Carlton already responded quite nicely to your plea for a donation of R12.

Also I'm quite impressed that you have a recovery machine and have it dedicated to one refrigerant type, as the EPA requires. I'm sure that you have such a machine since you are offering to recover the Freeze 12 and put it back in the 30 pound container.

I'm sure that you know that 30 pound containers have a one way valve to prevent using them for recovering refrigerant which is illegal to do so in such containers. So, you obviously have a reclaim tank for your recovery machine. I have not seen recovery containers in 30 pound sizes, so your reclaim tank is quite rare.

I am very impressed to know that you have taken such steps to be prepared to recover your refrigerant. Just think how much R12 you could have bought with the money you put into your recovery equipment.

Have a great day,

I still don't understand. You still contend that "134a is toxic sludge," but you use a refrigerant that is 80% 134a. I'm still not following your logic.

BTW, I really am still greatful for your pictorial on the 123 a/c system.

Have a great day,

Read my pictorial more carefully! I dont have the machine. My friends shop has the recycle machine. And I would expect you to have seen that on the 3 pics of the machine in the pictorial. The machine has a recovery cylinder or course. And yes of course the 30lb cylinder has a one way valve. Why are you stating the obvious so much???

So....since I did not spend money on a recycle machine........and did not have any R-12 at the time.......I used what was available Freeze 12 :sun_smile

Oh and again, when did I say I would live forever??? There is much to much suposition and conjecture going on here I think.

Oh and I don't know if you know this, but there are many good Refrigerant Identifiers you can use to ensure a safe recovery. IF I had a machine and was doing this for the public, I would certainly use one.

Oh and looking back through the posts, I dont see where Brian offered me any R-12. Please clarify.

Brian correctly stated...as we have also said before....that we don't care what you use in your car... you are a grown person and it is your car.

The reason we post the facts about the AC stuff is for others who might read this and think that Freeze12 is a good option for their cars...
We are just making sure the drawbacks are posted... unlike what you have been doing.

I did not say that he offered you R12. I said that he responded nicely to your plea for R12.

You're right, if you're going to recover refrigerant from cars of which you don't know the history, you have to have a refrigerant identifier. If it weren't for all the bootleg use of junk refrigerants without proper fittings and labeling, there would be no need to purchase this expensive device.

Have a great day,

Hmmmm...the A/C System on my W116 is totally stock. I kept the system in a vacuum during the period of storage while the engine was out of the car. I also kept the kompressor in a vacuum.

I charged it with R-12 (I still have a license and can buy the stuff) and it gets so cold you cannot stand it for long periods.

Is this pictorial about getting Freeze 12 down to 38°F in the registers???...Bert

No, the pictorial is mostly about changing the compressor and the other parts typically needed to be changed during a/c service. It is on a 123 car specifically so it would only be generally useful for your 116 car.

The pictorial is quite good, it's just that us annally retentive folks here have turned the thread into a junk refrigerant debate.

Good luck,

So you are most concerned about the labels and fittings. Why did you just say so??


I will say it again. If I had R-12 I would have most certainly have used it, hands down. But it all apparently leaked out :eek:

It is so hot hear, and I did not want to wait to get some R-12, so I used the next best thing. I am not so sure that R-12 would cool ANY different. However I am willing to swap it to R-12 if someone will ship me 3 1lb cans.

Now that would be a real live test, to see which performs better in this application.

I also am STILL amazed at how the BG oil makes the compressor TOTATLY silent. I can feel the compressor kick in, but there no autible noise at all. WOW I am sold on the stuff.

"It is so hot hear, and I did not want to wait to get some R-12, so I used the next best thing."

We just don't want anyone else to make such a short sighted decision... you did not use the " next best thing".. because it limits you to using your friend's shop and recovery equipment...

Find yourself on a trip to Arizona and need AC work and see what luck you have...

DieselGiant, I'm glad you had a good experience with Freeze 12.

My own experience has been poor with that product. My indy put Freeze 12 in my system, along with a new compressor and drier, etc. If the temp was 85 or less, I was fairly comfortable. Anything above that was miserable. My compressor lasted a little over a year, then broke again, $1100 down the drain. Of course, I'm in Oklahoma, with high humidity and higher temperatures.

My 2 cents......

Mine has R134 and is ice cold
 

My car had been switched to R134 when I bought it so tells the tag under the hood where the original owner had it serviced.

The R134 produces some ice cold air in mine as of yesterday and switching the dryer accumulator. I can't imagine any better performance.

Willrev, You will be able to get your system serviced by any AC shop you drive into... since almost all cars now use the 134a....

We are just warning people that the Freeze12 is a blend which few if any shops will have the dedicated equipment to deal with...

A) It was not a "short sighted decision". The Freeze 12 will be in there as long as I don't have to open the sytem. Could be in there for years.

B) I do ALL my own work so it does not "limit" me to anything.

C) Send me 3 1lb cans of freeze 12 and I will switch. Since you have such great concern, then sending me the cans is a great trade off for you. If you don't send them to me, then it really is not THAT important to you. AS they say talk is cheap and typing is even cheaper. So if it really is so important to you, which I am betting it is not, you just like to spar back and forth with me, then send me the R-12.

D) Send me a pm and I will give you the address to send the R-12 :D

I have already found your Address... and the fact that you are a dealer...
I think it is interesting that no matter how many times we tell you we don't care what you do to your particular car you keep coming back with the same tired arguement...
We only care about what others have available for information.... and with your reckless posting we are obliged to keep bringing up the truth...