5 speed 300D turbo - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cwdtmmrs · #16 05-02-2006, 08:58 PM

Tom, Just because the fws share the same bolt pattern, doesn't mean that they are interchangable. The 280 fw I have also will bolt up, but I wouln't use it either. The manuals say that the 240 and the 300 (616 & 617) fws are different and not interchange them. After running the 616 fw and 4 speed trans behind a 300D turbo for over 2 years, I can say with experence that it works, but isn't right. I did get a quote on a new 617 fw from Europe-$500+. I will probably go that route. What's money between men like us?
Thanks, Tim

wolf_walker · #17 05-03-2006, 12:20 AM

I did a heck of a lot of reading on this back when I was active in MB diesel stuff and driving my 300D (and dispising the auto trans).

My conclusion is the 240 peice will work, but it's not right. The injection pump is different between a manual and auto as well, you'll find the throttle and RPM drop feels "funny", hard to rev match and such, possibly one could arrange a physical damper of some sort to slow the RPM fall of the motor, but I'm not sure. I don't believe the issue with the flywheel is so much longevity as it is the weight is different and it ties into the feel of the motor between gears when it's freewheeling, if that makes any sense. It's been awhile.
I've driven a true euro stick 300D(non turbo mind you) and a converted turbo US stick model, and it's a big, big difference to me, the euro car felt "right" and the turbo car was just as I said, hard to rev match and shift smoothly.
I think someone good with injection pump internals could make something up that would work with the 617 turbo and a stick. I just ended up wanting a better handling car with more power for right now, but I look foreward to getting back on this project one day. Cheers..

PS: This is all off memory, sue me if I'm mistaken..

#18 05-03-2006, 12:34 AM

The way I get around RPM loss is to use the 240D's dash mounted idle adjustment. I just tune it for the best rpm drop and idle speed.

When my engine is cold the RPMs drop real fast. So a high setting helps this and the higher idle warms the engine faster.

Hot, the drop will be just right when my idle is at 700rpm.

It's ok with me since I don't mind tweaking the idle knob every now and then.

t walgamuth · #19 05-03-2006, 04:21 AM

all this is words, i know, but to me if it will bolt in and work it is interchangable. is it perfect for the job? well that would be another word. ideal, perhaps.or 100% compatable.

since they didnt make any turbo sticks, well....

if you are after perfection maybe a factory fw is the way to go. it may not be perfect either though since they didnt make turbo sticks, but it would seem the most perfect choice.

but is the vibe an $800 to 1000 dollar value?

tom w

fantom71 · #20 05-03-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwdtmmrs

Thanks Dale. I've got Phil working on it. Is your car a non-turbo?
Thanks, Tim

Yes indeed. I love it. When I got this car, I did not know just how rare this was. A 603 non-turbo with a 5 speed trans. It hauls butt, gets 32-35mpg city and is a blast to drive. Only if I could get the AC working...

cwdtmmrs · #21 05-03-2006, 04:14 PM

I have not experienced the throttle or RPM loss issue with my 4 speed set up. Mine shifts well and will chirp the tires in 1st & 2nd gears (not a good practice, as I did explode my 1st 4 speed, but I digress) I tend to be anal about details... anyone can do a job that is not "right". So, yes to me it is worth the extra $. That is less that a couple months payments on a new car, and what do have? I bought this car new in 1982...probably saved close to a $100,000.00 over buying new cars and paying repair bills. Plus, not having to smog every 2yrs in Ca. is worth the price of admission.
Any other personal experiences would be appreciated. Thank you everyone.
Tim

t walgamuth · #22 05-03-2006, 07:35 PM

well if you are going to hold onto it then the extra $ will all come out in the wash. there is no price tag on pride of ownership.

i still bet the 240 fw is not the cause of the vibe though. unless it is just typical 5 cyl hop. then the heavier fw will smooth it out.

my euro 300na stick was very very smooth at idle. it did not hop like the typical 300 with automatic.

tom w

Wasuchi · #23 05-03-2006, 11:19 PM

cwdtmmrs,

Are you sure that you aren't just experiencing "gear rollover" when it's being lugged? Most Diesel pickups with a manual trans will do this when lugged at lower speeds.

cwdtmmrs · #24 05-04-2006, 02:49 AM

My car has a definite driveline vibration/shudder when in a lug condition, no matter what gear it is in. Speed up, change gears, or de-clutch and it goes away. It has been this way with 2 different 4 speed transmissions (I blew up the 1st one).The clutch and pressure plate were new. I had the driveshaft balanced. Repalced the couplers and center mount. Checked the motor and trans mounts.Tried 3 different rear ends (369,346,307) Checked the front pulley/balancer... and had the car blessed by a priest! Most people would live with it as I have for the last 2 years. Since I will be pulling the 4 speed to swap in the 5 speed, now is the time to go for the proper fix. The "ideal" solution would be to buy a 617 fw, pull the crank and have them balanced together...but I am not going to pull the crank on a good motor that doesnt leak any oil. The next best is just install the 617 fw. That may not work either since the turbo and non-turbo cranks are not interchangable, but it is worth a shot. Oh yeah, there was indexing marks on my old 240D crank and fw. It might also work if it was installed in a different position. That could take 5 more tear downs to get it right! I can't be the only one that will have one of these 5 speeds in back of a 300D turbo. I will keep everyone posted.
Thanks, Tim

t walgamuth · #25 05-04-2006, 05:12 AM

well you are the first i know of. it should be a very sweet combo. what did your marks look like on your fw/ crank? what year was the 24o?

others have said they had marks on theirs, but on mine no marks were to be found. the fsm does say they are balanced together, but a bunch of us have had the experience of it apparently not being the case.

since the fsm says it i am now telling people to check their fw for balance. of course if you find it not balanced (mine was balanced on my 240) that is a warning that the crank is not balanced either.

now the five cylinder engines have shudders that a four or six wont have. my na 300 stick would shudder at certain rpm... not a bad one but it did shudder a bit. now i have had quite a few 300s (without counting i would say i have had 7 or 8) so i felt that i knew what it was and didn't worry about it.

is it possible the vib you are chasing is the standard issue five vibe? if it is, the heavier 3o0 fw will help reduce it.

nice setup you have there. i am definately jealous!

i have a five speed that i was thinking of putting in my 82 300cd but i have decided to keep it in my expro-ralley 280e euro and go with a four speed in the 300cd.

hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

tom w

patterson · #26 05-04-2006, 09:12 PM

I have converted 2 turbo US car to manual shift. One of them is the US 300D turbo car that wolfwalker mentioned driving. I have had 2 factory stick 300D's and have never noticed a difference in how much the rev's drop between shift between them and my converted cars. All Mercedes IP's are only governed at idle and full speed, so I don't see the effect that the governor would have on rev drop.

The 300D flywheel is significantly heavier than the 240D flywheel and much much heavier than the 280 (M110) flywheel.

No Mercedes flywheel is neutral balanced, if you don't believe me just have it spun on a balancing machine. They are far from neutral balanced. There is a very specific procedure in the manual in balancing the flywheel when it is being replaced. I have never done it without balancing the flywheel to match the automatic flywheel coming off, but I have seem some jobs that it wasn't done and they were always chasing vibrations. One vehicle couldn't run a week without breaking the air filter mounts. The flywheels should be marked before they are removed, I have noticed some later cars are marked with paint from the factory. Good luck finding that in 20 years. They got cheaper and cheaper with how they located the flywheels. In the 60's they had dowel pins, 70's they had good chisel type marks, and as I mentioned I have seen some from the 80's that were marked with paint if you can find it.

On all 300D's with factory stickshifts there is a rubber damper mounted right behind the flex disc, some US 300SD's had this too for some reason. Without this damper you will get a resonance at about 2000 RPM's under load.

I have some euro 300D flywheels that I brought back in a suit case from Belgium that I could part with if someone is interested in doing it right.

On fuel economy, my 300TD with the 3.07 rear axle I have gotten as high as 33 MPG on the highway, which is only impressive if you see how I drive. The turbo engine pulls very nicely in 5th gear on the interstate, even through the mountains I haven't had to downshift, just set the cruise and go. Pulling hills in first gear can be a challenge because of the high axle ratio, it puts the engine below where the turbo can give you any help.

I don't think that the stick conversion makes the car faster from 0-60 because you lose some boost between shifts, but it is nice to be able to burn rubber in an old diesel.

Matt

jcwells · #27 05-04-2006, 11:01 PM

I do not have the depth of experience that other posters have here, but I just got my converted (auto to 4 spd.) 240 back on the road last month. Initially I noticed exactly what Tim speaks about, “definite driveline vibration/shudder when in a lug condition”. I have since adjusted the timing and done a diesel purge. 1000 miles later, and the car runs much smoother over all RPM’s and the vibration under slight lug conditions is gone. As has been noted, could this possibly be combustion related when it’s not operating in its ideal RPM range?

John

t walgamuth · #28 05-04-2006, 11:01 PM

i think the happiest all around rear ratio in a turbo fiver would be the 346.

i had my 240 fw checked for balance. it is neutral.

on my 300d euro stick (83) we had to change the crank so there was no possibility of any marks. although we searched for them diligently. so finally we just bolted it on at random. it was smooth as silk. this was before i knew that the fsm suggested balancing with the crank.

tom w

#29 05-05-2006, 12:42 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Diesel-engine-1984-5-speed-mercedes-300D-60000-miles_W0QQitemZ8061628711QQcategoryZ33615QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"Diesel engine [1984 5 speed mercedes 300D 60000 miles"
IMPORTED CAR, MANUAL GEAR,[not shifting] AMOTOR is only 60,000, 718-387-7316 START instantly,as NEW CONDITION ! PAY only after inspected,if you fix The manual TRANS -you can DRIVE AWAY WDB1231301A105125 this have the 2nd MOTOR ! [ engine probably LATER MODEL than 1984 !!! ] if you for any reason NOT IMPRESSED -just walk Away !! i AM genteleman -if you not getting a REAL GOOD DEAL -you are FREE ,no commitment

Almost sounds like a broke/bent/loost shift rod. Too bad it's in NY.

t walgamuth · #30 05-05-2006, 08:55 AM

the verbage is enough to scare me off.

tom w