Another Question- VW vs. Benz
 

With the early (pre-TDI) VW Diesels, the pull knob on the dash had two functions- increase the idle speed for cold idling, and it also advanced the injection timing to assist starting. However, the MB "turn-key" knob on the dash only serves to increase the idle. I wonder why MB didn't include the timing advance also?

The VW system was kind of neat. As instructed in the owner's manual, it should be pulled out all the way for maximum advance when cranking a cold engine, but ONLY if the temperature was above -10C. If it was colder than that, you're instructed to leave the knob all the way in, until the engine started to chug- then you would pull it out, and with the sudden advance, it would usually start right up.

Barry- with the work you've done on VW's so far, have you investigated the effect of the timing advance pull knob on your milli-volt readings?

Dave

Thanks for indications that everyone is thinking.

Sam if you say where low on amount of fuel coming from an individual element then when you adjusted your sequential timing you would just not reach the same value.

Just too much less heat available.
You would instead reach a lower peak.
Actually that is a standard volumetric test in itself.
Just collecting injector output into a calibrated container over a specified time.
Recommended pump test if suspicious of this problem at dealer level on rabbit/Jetta diesels years ago.

All we have to do is look up information to access this.
In fact will dig up my Bentley Volkswagen manual later today and post the information if it's there.
My feeling probably wrong is that this problem may not be all that common originating in the pump but possibly far more common with a really dirty injector.

Again I might be wrong.
Above are just again just my opinions and anyone should challenge them if indicated.
You cannot hurt my feelings as the women over the years have made me almost immune.
Come to think of it us guys pale in comparison to their abilities in that area.

Also we can add an amplifier on to the piezo crystal output of the first injector and use it to fire a normal timing light or one we design as just an add on.

But this again is just too early to really pay any attention to.
Yes I think concentration should be given to the pump timing aspect first overall and to stay focused as you suggest Sam.

The gentleman who used the scope indication is a real asset to this going forward as well.
I hope the piezo output devices have no ringing effect and probably not as others would not have them for sensors.
Or that the injector opening is nice and clean vibration wise.
It probably is.

Anyone is welcome to dig in and post from my perspective as I still see it all for the common good eventually I hope.
I think it is starting to really happen anyways.
We should break this into two separate areas and threads pretty soon as the only operation manual initially might be some of us printing off the individual threads for reference.
Just my opinion.

Sam, I also do not consider it my thread.
Instead just a venue to see if this can hopefully amount to anything really with everyone involved.
I realized I did not have the time to give this my best if limited shot quite awhile ago as just too many alligators right now.
With their population increasing unfortunately.

I would like nothing better than to go out in the garage and work this out or attempt to on at least one aspect of it.
Also yes there has to be an advance curve built into the pump.

.

Coldwar, the answer to if I have dealt with the cold pre-start manual timing advance on Volkswagen is yes from a consideration point of view.

I first tried to utilize it as an indication the car was too far advanced.
It kind of, but again only an impression indicated on my own car that I was at the top position of usability when pulled out.
More pronounced effect it appeared but also since could not get car into obvious pre-ignition cold or warm with it out thought it was just a good indication in general.

That is compounded by the car starting easier in general to get a truer clear picture.
Still trying to get an accurate mileage reading as well but is harder than I visualized.
I just know it is higher than before the pump re-timing so far.
Plus of course the engine is not in perfect condition as compression is a little down and uneven perhaps, Injectors have never been checked either to my knowledge and overall mileage is getting up there.

I also have no data from the other two done other than the more apparent power form time of initial adjustment.
At least no apparent problems so far.
Or my phone would be ringing.
The only thing faster than bad news is lightning I suspect.:D

As for why Mercedes did not make some provision to increase timing to make cold starts easier and at a lower temperature?
Anyone that has owned both brands of cars has thought about it I think.
It just beats me and would have made a world of difference I believe.

Also forgot to include there has to be a mechanical advance curve engineered into the pump.
It does not appear to be linear either as some owners of Mercedes diesel engines with timing too far ahead have reported with quiet idle ( or should I say normal) engine runs poorly at elevated rpms.

.

Someone posted just hooking up four meters and tuning the elements.
This is not a good ideal.

First you have to prove they are out before anything and all you might accomplish at best is questionable.
But at least the idea has been mentioned.
I am not shooting it down either just stating to try to wait until a little more progress has been made.

There are far too many reasons why one glow plug will read differently than another.
Perhaps that might be good for peaking each element but we have no indication yet of actual accuracy of the Milli volt approach.

At a absolute minimum you would have to have all your injectors pop testing at same pressure plus spray pattern checked or an old engine you were just trying to get the last miles from perhaps as it might just compensate for general wear and parts out of normal tolerance.

Try to wait for the emergence of the piezo device.
Then it does not matter about any underlying problems.
You should get accuracy based on the items design.

It truly will be a good item to just do a general check with alone.
And if made available through a loaner program will accumulate millions of miles in postage over the years.
In fact if the post office funded it's development they would make a fortune. :eek:

It will have to be user friendly and rugged and accurate.
Plus needless to say reasonably cheap to build.
There is some design work ahead on the collection, processing and readout of that assembly.
May even require a master clock running in the electronic design.
Should readout in actual degrees difference in each element in relation to the others.
Not that complex to design but does require electronic types.

Again you might be courting disaster to try the multi meter approach.
We have no information about sensitivity of reading related to degrees at all for starters that I am aware of.
The only approach presently even thinkable is basically if you know you have one element off through tampering you should be able to approach it's original position to restore what existed before but again with unknown accuracy.

Or you have established pretty good proof a pump element is off through wear and tear for example.
Just better than being way out perhaps.

A gentleman is trying a comparison of two methods to establish some semblance of equality if any between the two.
This is very important.
Now timing the engine to the pump is a much easier and a lot lower on the learning curve.

In my opinion there is no downside as long as the pump is marked before adjustment.
We will learn really fast if it is the pumps peak voltage setting that is really desirable plus if not what is and will set pump by that method.

Also will give some indication of the plateaus dimension at peak voltage.
That is probably okay as other manufactures use this method.

Now where it shines is for the gentleman who reported his voltages all over the place is to find out why they are.
It even helps verify that you have found it.
Our previous method was basically to spend money and guess.
I really want to remove getting an old diesel being like marriage.
Sometimes cheap to get into but can really cost you over the long haul.
Others I hope feel the same.

I am just an amateur and what is developed here should be usable by all without fear or you landing up worst than your beginning.
Actually my original thoughts.
Well better get off the soapbox and get something done today.
Keep it coming.

.

I have a " high-res " photo of the space around the IP...
 

that really brings home the reality of just how cramped it is around the front-end of the IP. It's going to be a real challenge to come up with a design that's easy to fabricate and assemble onto the IP. I like the notion that the tool be useable in stages... e.g. use the clamp/lever bar without the hold-fast feature connected to the engine. Why you ask... well once a piezo-electric accessory is found that will reliably work to drive a timing light for these vintage cars, I can see a shop with 2 mechanics working together to first quickly check and then if needed quickly set up to adjust the timing without ever using the hold-fast. Once all but one one of the three hold-down bolts on the front of the IP are loosened, you should be able to adjust as necessary, tighten one bolt to hold that new adjustment, shut down the engine, tighten all bolts on the IP, and then close the hood... all of this as a final part of a general maintenance check on these vintage diesels!

Once we have such tools as a reliable piezo-electric timing light, and our developing IP timing clamp/lever, all we need then is a more complete understanding of the mv readings off of the glow plugs and how best to fine-tune the IP-to-Engine timing accordingly.

Yes, I see great potential for using piezo-electric technology to further refine and fine-tune our aging diesels, but I think right now this is a bit "cart-before-the-horse". Let's get the more practical application on line first. I must defer to the expertise of those like Kevin [aka " yellit " ] and others to think through and/or tinker with the notion of hooking up multiple piezo sensors to check the inter-relationship of timing between the IP's elements. On that note, I guess for a 4-banger like our 240Ds, that relationship can be calculated by dividing 360 by 4... so it would be 90 Deg. of CAM and IP rotation and double that for crank rotation (180 Deg)... and for the 5-cyl engine it would be 72 & 144 Deg. and so on. Is my thinking correct guys or is dementia setting in?|:wacko:

Sam

IP Tool
 

Hello all...
My hooking up the 4 DVMs to the glow plugs on my 240D was not to adjust individual elements as I do not think these should be adjustable on the Bosch pump without putting on a test bench....

Lucky I have an IP shop friend that is following this thread and he says leave element settings alone...as the stuff is very touchy...

The meters on each glow plug were just to see how all the millivolt readings tracked each other when I had the averaging parallel hookup disabled....

The O-scope could see the -6.9 dc millivolt-age average but the trace was like a fuzzy caterpillar...

what was interesting was a square wave riding on the trace about every minute or so...
I think this may be the Alternator output ....
I will check that again because it was too clean to be spurious pickup....
And I cannot remember if I had the relay plugged in.....

I think a vacuum tube voltmeter would be best to use as a peak indicator for its small voltage reading ability and needle sweep to set the peaks...
Also a very low loading effect on the circuit under test...
I need to get one to test with.....
As for the tool...I have brought my spare injector pump to the office today to measure and fit some of my scrap steel following Sams drawings...

I am thinking of putting extra supports around or in the heads of the 2 head bolts to provide support for the threaded rod assembly that will attach to the rocker cover, they can just rest on or in the head bolts, as the force will be applied in a sideways direction....

This forum stuff is the most fun I have had since I was a little kid..

So happy to meet folks with similar interest...
I just cannot seem to get my girlfriend interested in Diesel injection pump millivolt measuring theory conversation......
My tiny feeble brain is starting to liquefy from all this thinking!...
kevin

.

No dementia there Sam.

The possible future existence of the multiple piezo device could not be totally left behind.
Just makes things much easier and more accurate or sure for those interested in the sequential timing.

Also did not want people hung up on only the Milli volt application for sequential timing as there is so much work before you are ready and sure to apply it if workable.

But possibly still the best approach for general trouble shooting.
The piezo device on the other hand is totally isolated from everything I believe other than opening pressure of the injectors.
Application skill levels will vary.
It's gotta be nearly foolproof.
If not the working mechanics will hate us. :D

Believe it or not just trying to make it all easier in the long haul.

Failures will hurt and set back progress.

I believe we should divide threads a little later this week so everyone will realize that we are dealing on two items.

Of course we will as a group keep working on the engine to pump timing.

That builds faith in the future and might even get me off the nut list.:eek:
I believe someone is popping over with his pump holder this week.
I looked under the hood on one of my 240s and felt there were better minds out there for this than mine.

I am a slow learner but instinctively knew enough not to open the hood on one of the five cylinder cars.:D
Only contribution I might make is the ideal of squeezing the pump in a clamp must be moderate towards the front I believe unless someone can post knowledge of the internal construction.

Or load is perhaps carried towards either the upper or lower flanges.
Or measure the deflection if any under clamp pressure.
May be none present.

Also for a project perhaps one of the younger members could interest professors in having a go at writing software to deal with the incoming pulses and produce a rational screen output.

Remember master resettable clock in sync with one of the pulses allowing display of the degrees to the other elements.
It is likely to be a time equation conversion.
Then we just ship the wire harness around from a loan program.
We get the software and we are in business.

I have no doubt that you are on your way Sam.
Your constant ideas are very refreshing.
Your grasp is getting better and better as well.

Anyone can private mail me with better approaches to the multiple piezo problem or post their views when the new thread is launched.
What I do not know I will try to find out.
I will only comment on things to do with pump to engine timing until that time.
Only fair.
We want to get that working out first.
That means I better get that hood open again and have a look at all the present bracket ideas I guess.

Cannot avoid it as it will soon be show time.

.

Yellit my appologys. Good work and thoughts. Glad you did not want to disturb elements. My misteak. I make lots of them unfortunatly:)

A 2005 post... somewhat a sidebar but still related to Barry's THREAD...
 

Today while housekeeping my computer I ran upon this 2005 post I had saved:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/114055-camshaft-injektor-pump-timing.html#post807522?mode=linear

and wanted to make sure those reading this THREAD have an opportunity to read this. It talks about how cam time is adjustible using a "Woodruff Key" and what the latest author "Doktor Bert" recommends as far as varying timing from the official MBZ specs!

Sam

this is to report that Yellit is working feavorishly...
 

on his IP timing lever/tool and I have been following along kibitzing from CyberSpace! Here is my latest stick sketch idea that he is considering!
We will show you pictures when he is far enough along that you can recognize what it is.
Sam
P.S. - I grew up right near where he lives there in central Mississippi !

Hope you fellows are still persevering.

I think I will basically copy the last posted pump adjuster design for my Mercedes.

My old Volkswagen seems to be getting 47.99 miles per American gallon 3.78 liters?
Allow that it is a warmer time of the year but not hot yet, and that I have been doing primarily 90 percent or more highway driving, at about 65-70 miles per hour.

This I think is a little better mileage than any I ever had before with older Volkswagen 1.6 liter diesels other than the 1.9 tdi's.

The top fuel mileage I ever recorded on a tdi was 52.45 miles per American gallon.
Will keep a tally on the amount of fuel purchased versus total miles until I reach 5000 miles.
Then double check my figures.
One thing for sure is that I am not complaining even if the longer haul comparison by calculation drops it a little.

The more miles accumulated versus total fuel purchased has got to increase the accuracy of the results.
The above is based on twenty five hundred miles. .
Now I cannot wait to do the 240d standard transmission model with the 22-25 mpg performance on the highway.

Also wonder how much latent untapped power is hiding there if any.
We will see.
My other 240d is somewhat faster, and does get better mpg, but on the other hand it has an almost new engine.

The slower one seems to have a pretty sound engine as well just not new.
In fact it may be the original with 200k.
Thats if one believes the majority of odometers on these cars are really the original miles as well as in the tooth fairy I suppose.

.

Good news Barry...
 

although things have been a bit quiet on this THREAD, I'm sure others are following with interest. Since I have a 240D, I'll be following for sure. "yellit" is working hard to finish his tool that will attach to his 300D's IP and allow him to more readily change the IP's timing by use of a long pipe handle while he monitor's the mv output of his glow plugs!

I just won an Ebay auction for a used Kent-Moore J 33300-A Diesel Timing Meter but it's going to take a couple of weeks for me to actually receive it and check it out. It has a 1/4" clamp-on transducer so if we cannot figure figure out a way to make it work for us we are then faced with purchasing a 6mm transducer... and Kent-More appears to only market their products direct so I'm aprehensive about what the $ might be!

Question for READERS - What do you think might be a good way to "jury-rig" this 1/4" [ 6.35mm ] clamp to work on our ~6mm MBZ fuel lines. I was thinking of wrapping the fuel line with multiple wraps of thin aluminum foil... what do you think?

Barry - I would like to see a recap summary of the steps you think should be followed leading up to adjusting the IP-to-Engine timing on our MBZ(s).

Sam

Sam, a recap is a pretty good ideal.

To do this procedure I would read each glow plugs output voltage individually.
Just to establish no existing major difference exists from one cylinder to another prior to reading them in parallel for the actual timing adjustment.

Otherwise you have a negative component in your overall average that of course pulls the average voltage off.

Really of no significance particularly for the test unless that lower or higher voltage is being created by a pump element that is out of time.
If not correctable just eliminate that plug from the parallel string for the test but much better to find the cause of the off voltage.

I myself would want to know why they are not indicating similar voltages before proceeding and rectify the problem.

Otherwise you are setting the timing on an engine that has underlying problems perhaps.
May be something as simple as the valves need adjusting or an off value glow plug or perhaps even a poor injector for example.

Then after correcting the problem it is just a case of reading the average output voltage on the harness and setting the pump to the highest output voltage obtainable.

If your meter wants to hunt just add the capacitor and resistor to stabilize the last digit.
Some people report their meters hunt while others seem not to have the problem.
I suspect most will though, and you really want a stable reading to adjust by.
The other thing is to add two marks on the pump flange and pump mount area before you start both for comparison and to give you the starting point to get back to if desired.

Would also give you some reference if say you drip timed the pump for comparison as well.
Pretty simple and thats what we want long term anyways to eliminate possible foul ups.

I again think this is getting pretty close to a valid procedure at this point both from the Volkswagen results and common sense.

As people start doing this procedure the posted results will drive it forward I believe at an enormous clip.

If your mileage and power are greater after the adjustment that verifies the engine likes your new timing.

Do not expect results to necessarily tally exactly with any other system that uses the position of number one injectors firing point and the crank degrees as they do not allow for fuel quality, or many other variable factors.

I suspect on the older engines you will land up a degree or so advanced beyond the other systems perhaps even a little more.

Still a comparison with another system would be nice for the first few done by this method.
You are tuning for the hottest combustion point of the engine instead.
The maximum efficient fuel usage with the most power potential developed without getting into pre-ignition.

If the peak voltage obtained seems to have any width or tendency to stay the same over a few degrees of pump movement I would stay at the retarded side of the peak while still being in it.

I suspect for absolute perfection we will need meters that have a resolution of a hundredth of a Milli volt rather than the common meters tenth of a Milli volt but no proof of that requirement yet and may be overkill even if it might eventually appear useful.

I think that about covers it. :)

.

Barry - in an effort to move things along...
 

Barry - in an effort to move things along...
let me be so presumptuous as to extract and/or paraphrase from what you have written and make up a rough draft of what I shall call our initial check-list for using your mv IP-to-Engine timing methodology… or to coin a new buz term let’s call it “ Barry’s mvIP2EtM ” :

=========================================

(1) Timing Marks - Before moving the IP and thus its timing, ALWAYS place a mark on the IP flange in line with a second adjacent mark on the IP pump mount. These could prove essential if you end up with a timing problem and need to return to the original timing.
(2) Initial Glow Plug [ GP ] mv Readings* – After starting and warming up the engine, disconnect the line connector on the harness that runs from the GP relay to the GPs and sensors on the engine… this using a digital volt-ohm meter [ VOM ] make and record the initial readings of the small voltages [ 6-15 mv ] generated by the GPs working as thermocouples.
(3) ___________ [ space reserved…for 1 or more steps that I think will be needed in here! ]
(4) Parallel Connection of GPs– Electrically connect in parallel all GPs to be used in timing procedure. An easy way for this is to use “banana plug” connectors inserted into the IP relay line connector. [ I’m prepared to provide a hybrid photo/graphic illustrating this ]
(5) __________ [ space reserved for 1 or more steps… ]
*FootNote – some VOM’s will indicate reasonably stable readings, but others will fluctuate wildly and if this occurs, you can stabilize the readings using a simple R-C circuit connected to the VOM’s leads. ………. [ add description of resistor and capacitor values and how to put together this simple circuit… I’ll be glad to help write this up once I have an explanation to work from ! ]

=========================================

OK, now this fall flat if the more avid readers of this THREAD do not jump in and comment on what I'm trying to do to help out here. I'll save the rough draft text above along with the special formatting that generates this POST... this so I can easily incorporate your input and re-send it in a future POST. So don't be apathetic out there, speak up!
Sam

Thanks Sam you have been a tremendous support.

It's about time to get some of these done if possible.
We need the feedback.
Good or bad.

Almost everybody wants the maximum power and miles per gallon out of these engines consistent with them running properly.

This is just an attempt to help get it.
We have no other way to allow for wear in our old engines and accessories when timing them otherwise.

The old timing methods might even be obsolete I suspect but we will not know that without feedback.
I will be doing one of my 240ds soon but not driving it enough to verify the results for awhile.

But I will do the well up test before doing the Milli volt test and mark the pump for reference.
Plus post the results of course.
I originally thought it would take time for the system to gel.
Perhaps as much as a year.
At least I might be right about that it seems.

Try to remember that certain manufactures use this system to time their diesel engines to pumps at the factory as far as I am aware.
Even without the pump holding jig one can loosen and move the pump a very little toward the engine and re-tighten it then restart the engine and see if the voltage is higher once it re-stabilizes again.

If so turn off the engine and move it a little more and recheck it until the maximum voltage value has been reached.
We are talking about 1/32 inch movements or less at a time from your marks in most cases.
Then try the car for a few days.
At worst you will reset to the marks you made at the start but from my experience so far with old diesel Volkswagens thats the last thing you would ever consider doing.

There might be exceptions and if so we need to find out.
I suspect the majority of the six miles per gallon spread on 240ds that I am aware of reported might be right there.

Some owners report 30+ mpg on the highway with the majority reporting about 25 mpg.
Also the different individual power spreads reported with that engine have also always disturbed me and originally got me thinking about all of this.

We as owners really cannot afford to ignore this if it is valid.
The power you are perhaps missing on your 240ds might even be considered a safety issue.
I know for certain that I did not have the fuel pedal as far down for the same speed or power as before the re-timing on the Volkswagens.

Plus the engines do not seem to be working or straining as hard at cruise speeds.
They sound and feel much happier to use a common expression.
That has got to be less fuel for the same speed/distance.

Also starts seem a little easier as fuel is then injected closer to the peak dynamic compression point rather than later in most cases when compression is starting to drop off.
This insures a hotter ignition point than you had before as well.
It really does appear to be all upside at this point.

.

Barry I don't mean to invoke religion here, but...
 

me thinks you might be " Preaching to the Choir " [so to speak] !

Some Clarification needed please – Your description of making small incremental changes to the IP-2-E timing sounds almost like a “ static adjustment ” method. " Yellit ” [ aka Kevin ] and I share [I think] the premise that with the right adjusting tool [ like the one Kevin is building as we chat here ]... one with a long and strong enough lever, we think we should be able to make the mv IP-2-E timing adjustment “ dynamically ” with the engine running.

Have we gone astray O’ Greasy Leader!?

Sam

Sorry no preaching intended.

I guess the total apparent success on the Volkswagens has fired my own enthusiasm up too much.
I will try to dampen it.

Plus when the overall idea was initially considered it was thought there would be insurmountable problems by some even reading the glow plugs, or finding a meaning from them.
I was and still am looking for skeletons in the closet.
No you have not gone astray either.

I just mentioned the combination static/dynamic method because it is possible but harder and has some pitfalls. .
I also thought some people may never build the adjustable jig for example.

The holding and adjustment jig is far superior.
That ideal of yours was and is excellent.
I have noticed that the final adjustment is very small on the Volkswagens for example and a similar tool for them would help a lot.

The Volkswagens were done totally dynamically with the engines running as well.
It would have been a much harder time to do them with a combination dynamic/static method and would not have ended up as accurate, only better to some extent.

Same principal for Mercedes of course.
I personally do not want to do it by the static method of actual pump adjustment either as the wait to establish if the voltage has gone higher or lower alone mind the things that could occur to add inaccuracy to the procedure are many..

Mind the trial and error to find the ideal spot.
It might make the procedure long and tedious as well.
If you could actually drive the Volkswagens before and after the change you would like myself not only be very happy but want to share it.
It seems to work really well, in fact far beyond expectations as I initially felt it was just a substitute for factory timing and other approaches at best.

At this time I believe I was wrong.
It seems superior unless I am missing something, (those skeletons again).

The total dynamic approach is the only one that is really proper and insures accuracy with this method in my opinion.
There are still plenty of unknowns as it is.
I do not see myself as the leader but just another participant in this this thing.
Many others will make contributions and already have to help it along.

.

IP Stuff continues
 

Got called out on job tonight so have not finished my glow plug upgrade to time my 300...

Just a note that all 5 of my brand new glow plugs read very very close in MV on a bench test....

Hooked the dvms to them and:
* Heated the tips with a propane lighter.
* Got to about 2.5 MV each one.
* Then let cool and hit them with light freeze spray and was able to take the readings toward opposite direction.
* Then back to zero at room temp....

so close to the actual timing and just got paged again.
May try tonight if I get back in time.
Rerouted new fuel lines to accommodate timing plate.
Kevin

.

Kevin [“yellit”] and I have been collaborating a bit…
 

or meeting in private as it were “OFF FORUM” talking about different ways we might come up with what you call the " adjustable jig ". And you are right the first one that Kevin is close to finishing is not likely to be duplicated by any but the most ardent fans of this concept… but I’m still racking my brain trying to come up with a simpler way and the experience Kevin will gain and share with us might just give us information that will allow a simpler way to be more obvious.

The one idea I’m toying with right now is the use of a “strap pipe wrench” with the strap threaded through the center of the IP’s fuel lines, tightened, and thus provide us an “ assist ” tool to help torque the IP against the heavy spring effect we anticipate from these fuel lines. Maybe the necessary torque will not be that great and we will be able to move the IP easily the few degrees that should be necessary under most circumstances. If heavy torque is needed this cheap supplemental tool might just be enough to allow us to design the " adjustable jig " feature more easily as it would not have to be designed to draw in or push a heavy load... mostly just serve tighten down and termorarily " hold-fast " the IP timing setting that gives us the peak mv reading and this we can find " jogging " back and forth with our heavy lever tool mounted on the nose of the IP and if necessary a supplemental torque tool such as my strap wrench idea.

Barry... help us out here:
Q – Do you anticipate most comonly having to torque the top of the IP toward or away from the engine… I think I remember that it is “ toward the engine ” to advance the timing or do I have it ass backwards ?

Sam

First Sam the adjuster jig will be required.

The total change movement will almost always be towards the engine (advance).

The total movement I anticipate will be no more than 1/8 inch.
Perhaps less at the applied marks on an average running engine.

As for the hard lines perhaps that small a total movement will not pose a problem.

For the adjuster I would like to see a fine threaded rod between the pump bracket and the valve cover clamp.

As very, very little movement has large voltage consequences.
This threaded rod would of course allow fine control of the adjustment.

Also I was not wild about the clamping to the valve pan cover as the torque and vibration load with the engine is an unknown factor in my mind and might be substantial.

Plus the stability of that pan might also effect the adjustment stability to some extent.

The saving grace may be the primary direction of torque is always the same.
The jig I knew was a tricky proposition as soon as I examined the engine.

This did not appear to be a walk in the park kind of thing for the adjuster design and the pan was logical under the circumstances.
Still might be good enough.

The hard lines will help resist the torque to some extent of course.
Yes it is great Kevin is so close to a trial.
He will go down in history as the first attempt on Mercedes with this method I believe.
Or at least that I am aware of.
My concerns, not major, may be unwarranted at this time.
We will soon know.

Glad to hear that you and Kevin have been collaborating.
Two minds are better than one for starters.
Like yourself I can only wait to see what his results are and any improvements indicated.
Or problems posed as well as they are a good possibility at this stage. .

Just hope it works as well for him as I suspect it can.
He sees the total application picture to some extent as well.
We as a group will work through this.

There is almost instant gratification if you can get the timing forward to the peak.
An old expression is that I am just crossing my fingers and hope any or all questions he might pose are answerable.
If he turns out to be a raving enthusiast who knows what we will do.:D

So much still ahead.

Sam, I own and can use things like my standard-modern 13" metal cutting lathe, plus many other metal working tools that many others do not posses.
Even with them and my limited knowledge I do understand how difficult that jig is to make simple and effective.

What does get my attention is that the factory tool designer was forced to attach to the head bolts.

From experience I have never had difficulty using one head bolt on an engine.
But two side by side?
Someone out there will have a brainwave at some point.
Perhaps what has already been posted will prove adequate.

I may be just ultraconservative.
As for the requirement to use the supplementary hard line wrench.
Using the factory adjustment tool there is no indication that a hard line manipulation tool was required to be used with it.

One eighth inch at the marks is probably about 3/8 inch at the base of the lines or less.
That I hope should be manageable.

.

Kent-Moore Primary IP Timing Meter & Timing Tool " Adjuster Jig "
 

OK guys, first I wish to report that I just sent off my Money Order for a Kent-Moore [K-M] J-33300-A Diesel Timing Meter [ basic unit ] plus a ¼” [6.35mm] clamp-one “Line Transducer” I successfully bid for on Ebay. So cross your fingers that the seller comes through.

K-M appears to sell such products only direct and they previously quoted me this “Basic Unit” only [ J-33300-A] for ~$850.00. I'll tell you later what this ends up costing me and more importantly how the instrument works out for us.

There are a number of accessories available and you MUST have one or more of these alternative accessories for the meter to work at all. It can be used on old and as well as newer diesels using combinations of a “Luminosity Probe” placed in the engine's glow plug hole, a “Magnetic Crankshaft Probe”, 3different sizes of “Transducers” that clamp-onto the fuel lines of the older cars like ours [ sozes = ¼”, 5mm, and 6mm ], and finally their own “ Inductive Timing Light ” for which I think you can substitute your own. I'm attaching a FAX "TIFF" file that summarizes this meter and the accessories and you should be able to easily view/print it for yourself. I hope it's viewable for you!

So assuming the seller comes through with the shipment, I will check it out and report back to you on its performance in working on our vintage MBZs.

Remember now, this is the same make of meter Brian Carlton and his friend used to compare IP timing setings using the official MBZ static tool ["RIV"?] on the newer in-line Bosch IPs. The one I should receive is a newer model ["A"] so I will report back to this THREAD or possibly start a separate THREAD. Why?... well:

(1) I’m sure there are others in our group who might like to know more about this meter that offers a possibly way to perform “Dynamic” checking and setting of the primary IP-to-Engine timing, and

(2) I might be given an opportunity to acquire another such Basic unit and Transducer sensor.

My best estimate is that the “Basic Unit” and one “Transducer” are probably valued at ~$1,000 replacement value NEW from K-M !

New Subject; Back to our fine tuning the " Primary IP Timing ”
Kevin [“ yellit ”] reported something in an earlier POST that did not register with me at the time… but now I see great promise in what he was writing about! I think what he sees potential for is a way to firmly mount an “adjustable jig” by using 2 or more of the special head bolts on the these 616/617 engines… don’t worrynow, he was not talking about removing and reseating these bolts for that would be an inventation to blow a gasket… but I do think he merely meant we might be able to come up with a way to fabricate a “ jig ” that would merely be inserted into the holes in the tops of these bolts… and my add-on idea is to also see if such such a “ jig ” can be held in place vertically using 1 or more of the valve cover bolts. The load from the “ jig ” would almost entirely be born by the heavy head bolts, not the valve cover bolt. Can anyone envision what I’m saying in proxy for Kevin? I’ll try to work tonight on a hybrid photo/sketch to illustrate what I think Kevin & I are [I know I am] talking about ! Stay tuned !
Regards,
Sam

Ferret makes a nice unit as well. Not too pricey.

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FER765-99

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERM764-96

We struck out trying Ferret's equipment...
 

jbaj007 and others,
Can you believe it, we purchased these same two Ferret pieces from this same retailer [ black box electronics and clamp-on piezo sensor ] and just could not get them to work reliably... even after the factory replaced the piezo-electric clamp-on sensor and their techrep spent considerably time with us on the telephone. We tried it on 4 different vintage MBZs numerous times and it only worked once on one car and then it wouldn't repeat on that car! We finally asked for and received a return authorization. Our best guess is that the Ferret sensor design just canNOT work on the heavier steel walls of the fuel lines used in these vintage MBZs. Others have successfully used the Ferret equipment on newer/different vehicles.

We were most dissappointed... so we are off now to see if we can work with the Kent-Moore meters [ around since the 1980(s)] that Brian and his Friend used.

Sam

Sam, congratulations on rounding up that meter and sensor. Is the sensor piezo electric?The other ideal of yours and Kevins for an alternate mount sounds very interesting as well.

IP moving attempts
 

Got the glow plug uprade finished...now 300D starts before I can turn loose of the switch....had not been cranked in about 6 months...once took forever and a set of heavy jumpers from my 240D to crank....unbelievable now instant start on old biodiesel....now the news...with all IP hold down nuts loose still could not move IP very much...about 1/16"....but the mv tracked up as I moved that little bit ..almost same values as the Barry VW...I ran out of manhood grunt force and I was worried about the delivery valves in the plate slot to push much harder...I think we may need to look at some kind of injector line bender/relaxer as it looks like those are what is doing most of the holding...I think Sams idea about a chain device through the delivery valve area is what is needed for leverage.....I could have driven around with all the IP nuts off and I do not think it would have moved...those lines are TOUGH.....Will try the 240 tomorrow and see if it is easier....I did notice the 300D now has extra (pep or snap) off idle...this car is a dog..my definite project car..just drove around parking lot ( no insurance yet...until I finish some basic stuff on it...not driving it while under repair).....I am sure the timing chain is about gone but there was a difference in throttle response with the new setting...Barry described exactly the different feelings about the increase....went from 11.3 mv to 11.9-12.0 mv all cylinders very close with the five meters on them...used all the meters to read the parallel group during my minor adjustment...all up-tracked the same....advance IP voltage up...retard IP voltage down...will do the 240D tomorrow after I get back from Natchez Ms. service call....fun to watch the mv count down after engine off......kevin

Yellit, Was glad to hear that all the parellel readings of the glow plugs where very simular on your initial check. That was an indication that your engine was fundementally in reasonably good condition as regards it's power balance. Hopefully you will find the 240d a little easier to adjust. One less line or a twenty percent less line tension to overcome for starters. Will the lines bend enough before damage is done to the delivery valves? Or cause leaks? I was hopeing this would not be a potential complication. In the overall picture it is really very minor to ease. Looked at one of my 240ds this morning and felt a tubing bender might help there by application of a little pressure on each line. The tubes might then have a slight tension bias in the direction you want to go in. Again the movement is really not very much. Or perhaps removing the line fitting from the injector before starting to adjust and bend each one a very small amount that is hardley visually noticeable might do it after the reconnect. There is also a small chance those lines had already had a bias in the other direction for starters. Any lateral heavy force on the fitting areas is not a particulary good ideal as you already mentioned. Thanks for your graphic description and input. You again are the first on adjustment of mercedes pump timing by this method. Now if you all experience milage improvements send me just one dollar for every additional mpg you get. I can then fund some of my other questionable ideals.:D Cheap at half the price.:rolleyes: No charge for the additional power developed either.:) I am so poor presently that I cannot afford to buy the wax for all my mercedes.:D Seriouisly though still so much farther to go and things to learn. On the other hand we are a good part of the way there. Your effort sounds just great.. I too hope the two forty blows you away after the retime. We shall see. Since you got almost perfect starts on that 300d engine before you did the retime you are unable to comment on any improvement in that area on your example after the retime?? Perhaps the difference on the two fourty might be observable? Tune in for tommorows episode readers and participate. It mighjt become a cliffhanger yet. This is not an exclusive club and insanity does not rub off but just may be contaigious.

Great effort Kevin... especially in your heat wave !
 

Kevin [“ yellit ”] let me be the first to commend you for your effort made to fabricate your torque tool in order to conduct this test… while at the same time you are literally reviving this your 300D “project car” and test driving it in the parking lot ! When you expressed question about the timing chain, well I could not help but feel that althougth the 300D deserves your TLC and life-saving surgery… BUT she might not exactly be the best candidate for testing Barry’s method MilliVolt primary IP-to-Engine timing method. I canNOT wait to see how the tool works on your 240D!

Let me also ask you and the more experienced MBZ readers… how many bolts [total #] are there hold IP down? Of course there are the 3 on the IP-to-Engine attachment flange. But is there not something else on the other end of the IP near the oil filter housing? Let’s make sure we have this IPP as “ loooooose ” as practicable and that the 3 on the attachment flange are not too tight and possibly binding! I would really loosen the one on the bottom of the IP-to-Engine flange.

Come on guys, pipe in here. Kevin and I are “Newbies” to these vintage cars!!!!!!!

Sam

should be a bracket and bolt at the back of the pump. Real pain to get to on a 617.

I have been following this thread w/ a great interest for quite some time now. I'm a newbee to benz's and am very impressed w/ you alls findings. I like the pipe strap idea. I have just one benz, and already a large project ahead of me(rear trailing arms,subframe bushings, driveshafts)but will love to check/ adjust my timing after that and hopefully help shed some lite on this issue. i dont have a lathe(yet) but do have a MIG and many other tools.

I, too was thinking that attaching to the head bolts w/ out removing would be a good option. one thing to consider, I believe, is that the old bolts are allen type heads and new ones are 12 point, so what works for one may not work for another.

I really want to thank you three for all your hard work on this one.very good info.

mo

IP bolts
 

Thanks for all the cheers guys!.....Total of (3) 13mm nuts on the front pump flange...Yes there is a nut or bolt at the rear lower portion of the IP....I was able to get it loose before adjusting ...it is easier to see at night with a flashlight...had a extra long snap-on 13 mm ebay wrench that did it....I knew it was there because I have a pump out on the bench...I think line benders are going to be part of this...my plate is too floppy to use with precision.....worried about damage to pump...I think the lines (take a set) after being in one position for a while......am going to start on Sams new design with the chain wrench concept..also back to the head bolt thing...after the 240D experiment....now off to Natchez Ms....kevin

" Mo " - you have already helped with our " JIG " idea...
 

by getting me to look at the 12-Pt head bolt a bit closer and try to figure out how to "hang" our "adjustable JIG" onto 2 of these bolts.

Take a look at the attached graphic of a bolt that looks like a male version of our female MBZ head bolts. If such a bolt could be found that would " mate !! " with the feamale bolts on these MBZ heads, well we might just have the beginning of an "adjustable JIG" that would hang off of two of the MBZ's head bolts... and if so I think we could configure a "JIG" with a strong, fine threaded, main bolt that could be attached to the IP and pull/push it against the strong "spring effect" of fuel lines Kevin was seeing and thus we might just be able to make the sensative timing adjustments that Barry feels we will need to make. [ How's that for a run-on sentence ]!!

OK... who out there really knows "fasteners" and whether or not a bolt like the one pictured below can be found to fit into [ "mate" !!] with our MBZ head bolts?

Sam

What size 12pt allen does the head bolt take? Seems to me I ran accross somethng liek what you want awhile back. Just gotta remember where.

Thanks for chiming in Bob...
 

I just returned from under the hood of the 240D in an attempt to measure the 12-pt bolt head pattern using a precision caliper but that's difficult with so little room inside there. The best I could come up with is ~12.4 mm point-to-point of this "star" pattern... and I assume this 12-pt female bolt is metric. In a little while I'll be going by the local foreign and Napa part's houses to see what they stock. Right now I think I'll search the online specialty tool WebSites to see what they have for tools made for these female bolts.
Sam

One might be able to put a tube on the top of a spare head bolt and pour molten metal in . That would give a the required part I think. Since a metal like aluminium with a melt point around 1000 degrees shrinks a small percentage as it cools it hopefully will release. A very small amount of metal is required. It could be melted with a welding torch in a small iron vessel. Or even a kitchen ladle. My other thought was to sacrifice cheap tools for the parts as well but pretty hard to work with as they are very hard. The hardness may be removable for drilling and tapping purposes if required. Your ideal of finding an existing bolt with an outside pattern identical and of a size to insert if available does sound much better and easier. Good ideal.

american racing products makes theese
 

ARP has a website
http://www.aptfast.com/APT_Parts/Other_Parts/o_Fasteners.htm
if you can figure out what size the HB are, I bet ARP has a mate for it.
John

The IP Timing Cult...
 

A little side note here about the wandering voltages.....the 300D had a bit of mv drift last night while trying to peak and the 240D had a solid mv readout the day before........ same meters...new glow plugs in each....I then remembered I do not have the thermostat in my 240..!!!...left it out so I could flush the cooling system soon but have not had time yet....I think the 240D had a steady thermal load just sitting there idling with no thermostat to introduce thermal change during operation...this may be a better way to peak mv's....Just back from service call trip so may have to time 240D tomorrow...not much go left in this Ole toad tonight....kevin

hunting effect-unstable voltages
 

Kevin, the effect is totally eliminated with the small resistive/capacitor network. I do not know exactly where it is coming from but might be a good side project for you at some point. I suspect also it is not happening because of no thermostat but could be wrong. I think it was you who mentioned finding a square wave that did not appear spurious riding on the glow harness. Your guess that it was probably the regulator was good as well. It would really get interesting if it was not present on the general wiring or not the regulator. At present we have no recognizable use for it but may in the future. The very first time I put a meter to this circuit I suspected something of a non spurios nature was present as well. I hope your milage and performance on the 240d really gets up into the 30mpg region with good power after the adjustment. Unless it is now of course. Then in my opinion there will be no increase in voltage possible from the present setting. Thanks for sharing your results and thoughts good and bad in advance. Just hope it really helps the 240d out also. A good clue it might is if the starts are easier after the adjustment. I was expecting that it would be an indication on your 300d but it seems to already have had exceptional starting ability before the proceedure.:)

The Great IP Debate....
 

Even before I tinker with the IP .......the 240D cranks so fast it is scary...even @28 degrees F. starts right up....amazing...the timing chain & glow plugs made the difference about a year ago...You should see my homebuilt timing chain spring loaded installation tool..... I will mark the flange real close so I can set back if needed.....will time it tomorrow ..too late ..too tired now....I have the voltage stabilizing network you designed ..works great...just did not need it on the 240D...( I do have massive grounding on everything on the 240D) (On the 300D I also found some volt drop between batt. neg. and engine block ground....this will get my obsessive/compulsive ground strap treatment too) I will pull the thermostat on the 300D after all this is done and retest....I now think the injector line bender/relaxer or several of them are going to be the key to fine setting without a bunch of pushing /pulling/hammering....I am looking at a dc level amplifier setup with a swinging needle readout to see the mv peak easier...would like to see the width,approach and dropoff ramps if possible and where in there we will get the best overall operation...some of the hardcore drip method guys do not like to think about this stuff....It may upset the rigid slightly retarded reality of how most of these older engines are indeed set....we may can throw away the drip tubes...like the bra-burning womens lib movement of the 60s-70s and finally be free...thank you guys for all the info.....kevin

great thinking.
 

As Kevin stated this test of a running glow plug may indicate inadaquate grounds. At some point the amount of hunting that is present might indicate if the grounds are not really good.. I now suspect for some unknown reason the current from the glow plugs is not constant and the changing voltage drop over the resistance of the ground is the hunting effect. It sounds like some of the effect of the square wave observed is being radiated into the ground leg of the meter circuit as well. Basically because it is has not got a true ground. For the life of me I could not figure out how that was getting in there earlier. I wonder now if attatchment to the block itself of the meter ground might eliminate it. Simple test to see if it eliminates the hunting as well. Just hook your ground to the motor and observe. Then hook your ground on any ground point off the motor. Is there a difference? As for him wanting to investigate the peak. That is also of immense value. I believe there are two optimum settings for pumps. One is for power and is a little advanced over the other setting that is for maximum milage. I have felt that for us the position of just getting into the peak plateau was perhaps going to be our best location. Perhaps just a comprimise but too early to verify it yet. It may not be a plateau but just that our meters resolution at 1/10 of a milli volt is not finite enough. It did occur to me and I did mention that purists might need a resolution of 1/100 milli volt. Also I stated it might be overkill for our purposes as well. Anyways Kevin might have identified another application. I always felt myself this approach might perhaps not be endless in application. Instead just be a way that we can eventually determine all kinds of existing problems that otherwise we would not have been able to. Or just indicate everything related to the combustion process is in good shape. Easily and cheaply. I now have a feeling Kevin may lead us down a very interesting path. Also Kevin it does answer perhaps why your scope trace was so fuzzy. I never could initially understand that either. Guess I just forgot about the ground loop in the circuit being poor but still more than adaquate for the general function of the engine etc. Still not a good thing to have though. It drops starter rpms. Keep at it Kevin you are great. I would like the opportunity to contribute to the operation manual of this system for users down the road if everything pans out. There is no doubt now that it is going to be a very good tool for examining the power balance on an engine. Plus a tool to aid you in finding out what is wrong if it is. Plus telling you it has been repaired afterwards. We never had that much control as amateurs before over these engines. Look at it as perhaps a true engine analyiser for diesels. We allready have very strong indications it is true. Not soapboxing here but just preparing you for the servicing revolution on theses engines or any other indirect injection diesel. I think a couple of us believe might be just around the corner. I know I can see it for sure. I believe Kevin can as well. All information in Kevins postings tend to make me think the fundemental condition of both his blocks is basically good,his injection pump sequential timing is good, his injectors are pretty fair, He has no particular individual low compression cylinder or cylinders, valves are not too far out of adjstment, plus a few things I cannot even think of right now. First written in stone rule of this proceedure would seem to be to only ground to the engine block. Or a component on it you are sure is grounded. To ground elsewhere should be considered for a test of your grounds only. Thanks once again Kevin.

ok, so I was looking under the hood and it seems to me that one could make a simple jig out of 1 1/2" angle iron which could slip over 2 head bolts, and have a bolt threaded into it which would grip into the freeze plug on the side of the head. from here one could anchor about anything.

also, thinking back and looking around, i found this:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/1071029711/r/4981009821#4981009821

quite a bit of info on using GP's as sensors.