USPS comes through in record time... J-33300-A has arrived
 

My new[to me]/used... Diesel "Tach-N-Time" meter was shipped from Connecticut on Saturday and arrived here in California today [Monday]! Now that's got to be some kind of record via USPS [postal service]. The meter appeared to be a little "ragged around the edges" [ or "Auf Deutsch" (in German) - "zackig um die Ränder" or just plain "zackig" ]. But this does not bother me.

After reading and understanding the instructions, I fired up the 1980 300D, and in the process of hooking up the meter I found that the 1/4 inch [6.35mm] clamp works just fine on these 6mm fuel lines. The meter's trigger light was firing consistently as it should and reliably too... so tomorrow I will go to the shop and "Karl" and I will put an inductive timing light with the meter to see if it triggers properly as I anticipate it will. IF so, then we are in the business of easily checking these cars for correct primary IP timing [ ~13 Deg BTDC as I presently believe is correct or the equivalent (auf Deutsch "Bilden"? ) to 24 Deg BTDC static using the old tried-N-true drip test method].

The problem we had before with the Ferret Diesel Pulse Accessory system was [ I think ] in the electronics " black box " that receives the piezo's low voltage pulse, and then uses in an amplifier circuit it to trigger a high voltage pulse that the inductive timing light thinks is the #1 spark plug on a gas engine. I think the Ferret "black box" is not able to reliably detect the weak pulse from the piezo sensor... probably because of the extra thick walls of these MBZ 6mm [OD] fuel lines on these Vintage cars.
Wish us luck tomorrow...
I feel like we are on a roll and making progress ( auf Deutsch " Fortschritt " ? ) !
Regards,
Sam

Timing Light Adapter
 

I just purchased an 84 300TD and am new to the diesel world, and the Mercedes world for that matter. I have been following this thread for about a week now and along with all of the other information that I have gleaned from this site I must say that you guys are the most mature and technical group that I have had the pleasure of sharing a forum with.

Well, at the moment, being a diesel newbie (electrical/electronics are my thing) I cannot offer much at this point but I did find a timing light adapter that has a peizo adapter for 6mm lines (purchased separately). Samuel, is this what you recently bought?

http://www.gxtinc.com/itempage.asp?ItemID=V765-01

Once I repair a few other things (transmission leak - small but annoying, transmission rubber mount, climate control mode door system, automatic door locks) I will try to time the IP the mV way. I have adjusted my valves and checked the chain stretch (using the cam alignment marks - it is at 2deg).

very important news!
 

Hi,

I talk about the 5 cyl. Turbo IP:

Turning the element (fixed by the plate and the 2 nuts 13mm) means FUEL QUANTITY.
Towards the pump housing you can find U shaped plates with a number stamped on.
Replacing these thin plates, changing the thickness, means changing the vertical position of the element: INDIVIDUAL TIMING. Never, never touch this, it is not necessary and may be harmful to the engine.
Adapting the QUANTITY by turning the element according the mV method is fine tuning.

This FACTS I just learned during a phone conversation with a specialist for diesel injection systems.

He confirmed that huge industry diesel engines are adjusted with variation of individual cylinder fuel quantity by thermal sensors monitoring the exhaust temperatures. We do the same with the glow plugs as sensors.
Other adjustments like individual timing are not worth to do. We can not get any improvement by playing with timing. Shop tested pumps are adjusted within 0.5 degrees and should be as accurate as possible, not like the quantity that can/should be adapted to the engine.

Summary: Turning the elements within the long wholes is o.k. but do not modify the vertical position of the elements, do not change, loose or mix the U shaped thin plates with the stamped number (thickness ???).

(Can you imagine how happy I am about this after my action on Saturday)

Tom

snakesausage...
 

Yes, but we had the Ferret V765-99 "black box" and whatever designation is correct for their 6mm pulse sensor. The initial equipment worked only once briefly out of the box on one vehicle but afterward it failed to work on several diffent 1980(s) MBZs. After several consultations with Ferret's techSupport people we ended up sending the entire system back to a Ferret Michigan location where they replaced the sensor and returned it to us. Again, with their techSupport people trying their best to talk us through making the system work... well we finally had to give up and were granted a return authorization by Ferret and the retailer from who we purchased. I have to give them credit, they tried, but I think their electronics "black box" just was not able to reliably detect the piezo's weak pulse signal. The 20 year-old technology of the Kent-More appears thus far to working perfectly for us with a reliable series of pulses being detected by the electronics. Tomorrow we marry it with the inductive timing light and see if comes through for us.

Welcome to this "THREAD" regarding "Setting pump primary timing by milli volt method" in the "DIESEL DISCUSSION" FORUM on the MercedesShop.Com website. We welcome your participation and skills.

Let me say something right away... PLEASE don't make changes to the timing of your individual elements on your injection pump [IP]. Maybe so day in the distant future we might be addressing this procedure on this or another THREAD, but NOT YET.

Welcome [ Willkommen ]
Sam

Willkommen zurück Herr Tomnik...
 

I’m glad you are still with us… even after my bad joke translated into German! I’m also glad it turned out you are from what we used to call “ West Germany ”, after all that is the birthplace of these diesel “beasts” we love so much to tinker with [work on]. Let me “ paraphrase ” what you wrote in your last “ POST ” on this “ THREAD ” of our “ FORUM ”:
(1) You confirmed that the “ ELEMENTS ” are attached to the injection pump [“ IP ”] by the two 13mm nuts,
(2) You indicated that turning these only changes the “ quantity ” of fuel delivered by the ELEMENT,
(3) Under the two 13mm nuts and plate there are “ U ” shaped plates that have numbers stamped on them… and these plates are of different thicknesses that determines the timing of each ELEMENT.
(4) Changing the “ quantity ” of fuel for each ELEMENT using the “ mv method ” by monitoring the glow plugs is nothing but “ fine tuning ” the quantity of each element.
(5) Your IP specialist confirmed that changing the timing of individual ELEMENTS is a waste of time because they are normally adjusted within 0.5 Degrees at the alignment shops
(6) Adjusting fuel “ quantity ” of each ELEMENT is an accepted practice because it is “ fine tuning ” [ or adapting ] the IP to the conditions of that particular engine.
(7) In your summary you said: Turing the ELEMENTs is OK… but do NOT modify the vertical position of the ELEMENTs by changing or mixing up the thin “ U ” shaped plates [shims?] that have numbers stamped on them.

I apologize for my bad jokes earlier !... [ Ich entschuldige mich für mein Schlechtwitze earlie ! ]

Hey Sam,

I am about 50 miles west of Stuttgart, where the stars are born.
Thank you for your support in translating .

(1) is just a description to show what I am talking about
(2) is the opposite of Barry’s post #158 (You are right there is no change in the amount of fuel injected. (for practical purposes) Just the individual cylinder timing changes on number three basically)
(3) yes
(4) … with the possibility of adapting a pump to an engine!
(5) … and there is no adaptation possible to the engine (the best is as it leaves the shop, he confirmed me very fine tolerances)
(6) Yes, element fuel quantity following temperature sensors in single cylinder exhausts (equal temperature is the goal, adjustable with individual element quantity). Our temp. sensor is the glow plug.
(7) …the shims’ thickness seems to give the timing

“I apologize for my bad jokes earlier !”

You pay the beer next time we meet and everything is o.k.:beerchug:

Greets Tom

Timing light wedding
 

Sam...Looking forward to the union tomorrow of your new meter and timing light...will be finally able to give a number to the mv method...still have not made my lines yet...my job keeps getting in the way of my Benz tinkering...Welcome to the new member..thanks for the compliments to our group of old crusty diesel heads.....Tom...I am glad to see you have a sense of humor and thanks for your input from the Bosch person...I see you also enjoy the challenge of exploring the fine tuning for the mental fun and exercise as you say....you are in the home of the Benz and the diesel engine for that matter...you are certainly close to the source of all things Diesel...kevin

Tomic, if that is accurate that it is just the fuel volume then it is a boost. Plus of course some of my thinking was in error. My thinking was based on a gentleman a long time ago now. He found when he loosened his injector line his overall rpm picked up. When he tightened his line fitting his rpm fell. Also he had a pronounced knock. After manipultion of the element both problems went away. I was under the impression he had an element very advanced by description and results. That indicated timing more than quantity of fuel. But still might have been fuel only from your description I guess. Also he did not get into the shims but just loosened the two nuts and moved it a little. Can you double check? Or anyone else know for certain. I really though that adjustment affected sequential timing. Rather than volume of fuel. Or there might be a limited interaction. Again if only fuel it might be considered a tune up item to some extent. It does seem to make some sense that vertical displacement with shims would change the opening pressure point and open the injector earlier or later. At this stage I just am no longer sure. In a way I hope I was wrong. It might make things easier. Tomoic, keep posting as everything learnt is important.

Barry,

Timing is obvious:
By changing the vertical position you change the opening of the internal bushing in relation to the piston (the piston is fix to the engine). Fuel displacement starts in the moment the piston covers the opening (see drop method for total IP setting).
Loosening the 2 13 mm nuts too much will free the shims and at first will have an influence to the timing. After tightening the nuts you go back to the shims distance and timing is back. Of course the mV will change with incorrect timing, I can confirm.
When I finished the quantity setting I tightened the nuts and my mV changed. So setting the quantity only with minimum loosened nuts to keep the vertical position.

I hope at least one person (Sam?) can understand what I try to write with my poor English.

Tom

Tom, your writting and english are good. If totally true it really is a boost. In some ways I am very conservative. Also I welcome any correction to my thinking. I know several people including myself follow yours. This is a many person group thing and now I have to wonder what else will be discovered. I wonder too if somewhere it is all ready done. Where is that information? I know one person had it all worked out pretty well totally. We should try to find him as a group. He was the guy that posted his efforts to some extent on another forum. I just hope his work is recorded somewhere. Or we might entice him to visit us. This area is too important to set aside. Thanks, Tom. Mobetta"s post # 120 on this thread should be examined by interested parties and an effort perhaps made to locate this guy. I sent him (crossbones) an email that came back as undeliverable. If we could locate him he might plunge in and share as it is obvious we have some of the same interests. I will ask others on the biodiesel site if they might be aware of his present location. Or even a method of contacting him if they know. Wonder if someone else might try to contact him and invite him over for some of his opinions? His last post was june 04/06 his email is jhudson1@nc.rr.com. I got an undeliverable message on my email to him. He could clarify so much.

Because this THREAD has become so long...
 

I thought I would bring to your attention the following way of more easily looking at our POSTS... take a look at this page:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/152389-setting-pump-primary-timing-milli-volt-method-5-print.html?pp=40

You can access this VIEW by using the following drop-down menus:
"Thread Tools" /and then/ "Show Printable Version"...
and then in the top, right, corner of your screen select:
"Show 40 posts from this thread on one page"

Using this VIEW and a little imagination, one can easily make your own WordProcessing file of our entire THREAD on this "Primary IP Timing" subject!

However, there are a couple of things not good about this VIEW...
you will not see or be able to see any attached files... and you will have to refer to the POST by Date/Time. I am not yet sure what the time zone is used by the FORUM's computer. I will note after this POST and see what it is.

Slightly New Subject - I had already started searching for a good reference book on Bosch In-line Injection Pumps and now I will try again.

If anyone reading this POST knows of any such books, let us know what you know!

Sam

While searching for a good book on Bosch in-line IP(s)...
 

I found the following at:
http://www.dieselpage.com/art0898pf.htm
I particularly wanted to bring to your attention where it says:
"Electronics for in-line pumps - For in-line pumps Bosch offers system solutions in the form of electronic add-on modules or fully electronic controls. Idle control and driveability can be optimized with add-on modules. There are also solutions for future emission standards. The electronic start of injection control influences the mixture formation and combustion. Emissions of nitrogen oxides and unburned hydrocarbons are significantly reduced."

Tom - Do you think you can find out what this is talking about where it says... " add-on modules " ?
Danke,
Sam

Sam,
electronic add-on modules are options to make the system more comfortable i.e. the compensation of additional load by stabilizing the idle when turning on the AC or shifting into D while not moving.
The modular system seems to be a basic mechanical pump plus different electronic options.
Nothing interesting for our project in my opinion.

Tom

Initial Report on results with Kent-Moore's J-33300-A "Tach-N-Time" meter...
 

[ First let me say "Danke" to Tom for the information regarding Bosch's "add-on modules"... for in-line IP(s) ]

This will likely be my “Initial Report on K-M J-33300-A “ TACH-N-TIME ” Diesel Timing Meter. This will take more testing to build credibility with us old-time skeptics out here on the "Left Coast"!

Initially we have tried the meter on my 240D and 300D [ both 1980 models… neither with a “turbo” ].

The first try was on the 240D which is what I consider a new engine [good documentation] with only ~25,000 miles but has always run what I consider "rough" at idle and I believe is idled a bit fast. I failed to check the chain stretch timing mark when we did the valve adjustment not long ago but I don't think it will be a factor with only 25,000 miles on the engine.

I must say the first results were unacceptable because initially the meter did not give what I would consider a reliable tachometer reading, bouncing up and down. In general I feel the engine's rough, noisy, idle caused much of the problems with our first try. Although adjusting the piezo pulse sensor [which I think is made by the same manufacturer that makes “ Ferret’s ” sensor]… adjusting it was far better than with the Ferret but still uncertain… that is until I wrapped the fuel line with one layer of aluminum foil tape… and then it was far, far, easier to get a reliably smooth idle tach reading and trigger pulse for the timing light. Using the method described in the Kent-Moore manual the engine’s timing came out to read 5.8 Deg. BTDC.

Next came the smooth running 300D which we believe to have less than 90,000 miles on the road [but canNOT be certain of this]… and when we did the valves a couple of weeks back we checked and found no indication of chain stretch. This car is so smooth we did not have to put any tape on the fuel line… and its timing came out to be 6 Deg. BTDC.

I feel good that both of these came out so close to one another but concerned that 6 Deg. is far different from what Brian Carlton came up with when he and friend Peter did a direct comparison between this same meter [possibly the earlier model J-33300] and the MBC IP timing tool [R.I.V.?].
I think they come up with 13.5 Deg. for these same 616 and 617 engines.

That’s a big difference so we are not yet satisfied that our results is reliable yet... and will likely continuing testing other diesels [ we have two turbo 123W(s) with 617 engines that we can look at ]… and we might just break down and do “drip” or “well-up” tests on one or both of my two cars to see what we come up with the old fashioned way!

Stay tuned to see what we find! I'm even more anxious to try the mv method... particularly on the rough idling 240D!

Sam

Sam,
I am glad you got to try the tach&time, your readings are very retarded.Make sure that the ip has never been r&r'd, if not yout timming will have to be advanced to approx. 12.5- 13.5 degs

Peter

IP Timing...
 

Sam...Had the mv peak method been done on these cars...curious to see what that would be compared to the meters readings...If you brought the timing up to the 13-14 btdc would hope that would be close to the mv peaks.....Thanks again for the loaner on the manual...modulator and filter kit on the way also....found my other set of lines for the test set up..... kevin

Never forget, a Scientific Method must be repeatable to be valid...
 

thus my dilemma over the results of our “Tach-N-Time” meter tests here on the "Left Coast". And I sense this with Kevin’s [“yellet”] last post. We all would like for the “ mv primary IP timing methodology ” to prove valid as a way to go beyond just using “ new-car setup specifications ”… we want to fine-tune our Grand Old chariots to accommodate their many years of service. Machines yes, but when put together, each has its own special needs too!

Specifically I would like:
(a) to be able to “dynamically” check the primary IP [engine-to-IP] timing - quickly, and ea$ily... AND
(b) if the timing is off significantly from “new-car specs” then definitely I want to investigate this condition further… and again, I think “dynamically” adjusting the IP’s timing is the better way because it's ea$ier and quicker.

To to accomplish (a) and (b) I have hope that I can make the “Tach-N-Time” meter work accurately and reliably. And together with a special set of fuel lines to relieve the "spring" problem, and a special lever tool attached to the IP's body, yes, I’m hopeful that the “mv timing” method proves to be valid and thus give us a quick way to “dynamically” check AND if necessary adjust the IP’s primary timing.

This is not unlike the medical doctors going in with an angiogram to checked for clogged arteries and if they find one, while they are in there they use the same cathetor to do the angioplasty... but in my case I was NOT a candidate for the "plasty"... and received the open heart double bypass !

Back to the subject of our THREAD... I have been collaborating OFF-FORUM with and receiving thoughts and advice from Brian Carlson and Peter [aka “DieselNut14”] and from this dialogue the best explanation as to why my tests [thus far at least] with the “Tach-N-Time meter did not give similar results as they obtained… my best explanation for now is that these meters can get out of calibration or possibly mine is simply defective and needs to be repaired or is unuseable. I will pose this very question to the Kent-Moore technical support people.
Regards,
Sam
P.S. - TomNik... I hope you see why I use such subtleties as replacing an "S" with a "$". It i$ my way of empha$izing that time i$ money when you are in bu$ne$$!

Hi Sam, you have been pretty busy. There might be a sensitivity adjustment in the amplifier that could do what you describe easily enough. It would just be responding a little early to the vibration intensity. It is just a trigger amplifier. Kevin may agree or may not. Basically what you are describing is that it has a delay. It is possible. Do not totally neglect the timing light either. They have had adjustable delays built in for years and it might be off. Or you might have two engines off. Anyways I would borrow another timing light before condeming the device or try to find a sensitivity adjustment if it exists. As long as it is consistant with the pizzo setup you can adjust your figures accordingly. You need a reciently drip or known well timed engine for comparisons in my opinion. Just some thoughts.

Sam,
just another 2cents worth, just hook up the tack&time and hook up your timing light and then read the timing at the crank without touching any buttons on the tach&time and that will show you your timing. The other method as the kent moore tool describes is also used and gives you tenths of a deg and digitally displayed. Hope this helps.

Peter

good news from the other front
 

Sam,

Yes I can understand what you write. Give me a little time before you expect this level coming from my side. But I’ll keep working on it.

Individual quantity: Today I talked to THE specialist for our diesels in the Bosch service in town.

Barry: He confirmed that turning the elements changes the quantity, vertical position means timing.
Then I asked in general if it is possible to “balance” an engine with adapting the individual quantity. His first answer came straight: NO

Then I asked him about industry diesels and he confirmed that they are usually balanced by individual quantity! But only with the help of exhaust temp. sensors.
Thus for our engines impossible.
I pushed him in the corner (with words) and he stated that balancing our engines could be made in theory but we need the individual temperatures indicated somehow.
Then: me: What do you think will happen with a glowplug in your hand connected to a volt meter when you warm up the pin with a lighter?

He: nothing.

Me: Try!

He did not believe and was afraid to check under my eyes.
I finally asked again about the possibility of “balancing” our engines by individual quantity adaptation. His answer was: YES, with the help of a temp. monitoring device (the GL).
When I left the place, the guy was still very astonished and trying to understand. Confusion was written in his face.

He also confirmed that there is no chance to get the TIMING (of each element) more precise than during the setup on the bench and on top there is no need to modify or adapt for any reason.

Maybe this can be tested some day just for information by hooking up the light on one cylinder after the other flashing handmade marks on the pulley.

So far

Tom

power balance?
 

Things slowley get better Tom. Thanks for double checking with the pump person. At this point I am glad I was wrong in some of my thoughts. Now much less chance of people doing damage when the need is really indicated. This information should have been known and used years ago. You power balanced your engine a little. Was it any better afterwards? Or was correction too little to notice? Your engine was in pretty good shape to start with other than one cylinder low by 2 bar. Did Idle smooth out a little? This might be useful with really older engines that have much different compression from cylinder to cylinder once injectors and valves not adjusted properly are taken care of. Plus using a set of calibrated glow plugs of course. The engines are not going to be smooth running with all kinds of different cylinder burn rates. If adding a little more fuel to a low cylinder gets it producing about the same power as the others the engine will preform better I think. Perhaps in the future a little yet though.

Thanks Peter [ aka " DieselNut14 " ]... Tests on more cars !
 

we two old fxxts [<-same in German!] quickly picked up on the two methods for reading the timing you talked about in your last POST... and so what I have evolved to use is to first use the K-M "Tach-N-Time" without any delay and do my best to read the timing direct from the dial readings on the crank wheel... and then I " Increase " meter's timing advance switch until the timing mark lines up with TDC on the crankshaft marks. And you are correct the latter does read to the nearest 1/10th a Degree.

Timing Tests on 2 More MBZs:

1985 300SD [W126- 617 turbo ] with ~200,000 miles, a car Karl has maintained for years. He just purchased it "Salvage" from the owner after it was caught in a creek flood [~$400] and he has been fixing the flood damage for ~3 months. The timing chain is most likely original but the engine runs beautifully. Our timing test results showed 10 Deg. BTDC using the "Tach-N-Time" meter

1986 300SDL [W126 3.0L 6cyl turbo] with ~250,000 miles and Karl will be recommending the timing chain be replaced without even lifting the valve cover... this due to miles, obvious poor maintenance, and "just the way it sounds" ! Our timing test showed 10 Deg. BTDC using the "Tach-N-Time" meter.

Preliminary Conclusion [I know this caption was an "Oxymoron" <- Oxymoron is the same in German!] - Regardless of what the outcome of calibration or repair is needed on the meter, I think we can clearly say that these old mechanically injected diesels end up out of timing more that our German designers would want to admit... you don't just set them at the factory and leave them alone... forever. I share Tomnik's inclination that the IP is not "sacrosanct" [not to be touched by us]. I think we should continue our pursuit of fine-tuning the primary IP timing and now with Tom's good news maybe even fine tune or "tweak" the fuel flow of each element using the mv method of monitoring the glow plugs.

All of the these engines should have the same IP timing except for any unique timing adjustments we might eventually learn to inject using the mv method. We have found: 5.8, 6.0, 10, and 10 Degrees BTDC on these engine that should essentiall be the same and if you throw in the ~10 Deg. correction factor that Brian & Peter found for the "Tach-N-Time" meter they had, these should have all shown up as ~14 Deg BTDC. So if we allow an additional correction factor to account for differences in the two meters, the range of 5.8 to 10 is 4.2 Degrees and I think we can agree that this is more than us perfectionist are willing to casually go along with!

I think before we start doing static "drip" or "well-up" allignment checks, I will try to find a local source for a MBZ " RIV " light allignment tool so we can find out for sure what the particular correction factor is our "Tach-N-Time" meter!
Chou... practicing for Italy this fall,
Sam

After traveling to ~26 countries and facing English-2nd-Language...
 

problems that were very funny, I find myself wanting to try and translate some of what "Tomnik" just tried to say so that I am certain that Barry does not miss out on antything. "

Tomnik" it was great the way you described your converstation with your IP specialist friend [was this at your local "pub"/ "bar"/ "beerHall" / "Stabnachtklub"] your writing was downright comical. But please try once again to explain what you meant by:

"He did not believe and was afraid to check under my eyes."
and this time include the same in German and I'll take a shot at helping with my translation too!
Sincere regards,
Sam

Glow Plug millivolts...Bosch confusion....
 

Good job Tom...!
We hope you do not get the Bosch people to start pulling out their hair or your hair...!....My Bosch guy here was uncertain too..until yesterday when he saw the mv readings on a mercedes at his shop....he also revved the engine up a bit and the mv readings climbed up as the temp. went up and then back down as he returned it to idle.....this Bosch guy is not confused...now he is curious and we will be checking some more to see how close this is....My friend here has been working on Bosch pumps since he was in high school...about 30 years of experience.....and is a registered Bosch repair center....keep on thinking Tom !........kevin

More Timing
 

Sam...Did you get to advance one of your vehicles to see if it made any diff....You have me too curious now.... instead of working on the transmission tonight I shall drip test one or both of the old grumpy beasts tonight and post back.....I already have the timing marks cleaned and highlighted on the crank pully and indicator tab....I too am waiting to hear what is meant by (checking under my eyes)...he must mean....It is hard to deny that.... (what is before your eyes.... or... what is in front of your face) most probably...but it is still enjoyable to see the humor Tom can put forth...I warned in an earlier post that some of these old IP guys will be mumbling to themselves...twitching, and jumping off bridges before this is over......now off to time in this wretched heat & humidity......kevin

I took it as Tom's guy was not going to be embarased or prove his ignorance with Tom watching. Imagine your feeling if a guy off the street came in and mentioned something that appeared nobody in your field had ever mentioned before and you saw the logic of it. But the guy presenting the information basically knew nothing about your field that perhaps you had worked in for 20-40 years. Different people would react differently. Kevins guy had to see the milli volts rise for example with his own eyes. Kevin could not be right or he would have already known or heard of it perhaps. That in itself made it impossible initially. Now that he is a convert to some extent he might work out some useful values for example. He hopefully might see it as a time saving method on some of his work at some point. Or just natural curiosity. Wonder if one or both the pump guys will contact the pump manufacturer pretty soon to see if any information is available? But you are right it is funny.

Drip timing comparison...
 

Hello fellow diesel creatures...Did the drip check on the 240D...IP lever wired to full load position...Vacuum line to IP shutoff valve removed...#1 element spring and valve removed...IP drip tube installed with spout toward engine block....camshaft checked to make sure intake and exhaust lobes up so that crank coming up toward TDC on compression stroke...pumping hand fuel pump to insure flow from drip tube begining at about 35 to 40 BTDC....right at 22.5 to 23.5 degrees BTDC the fuel flow stops completely...hard to get the drip count... but easy enough to see the fuel stop....repeated many times always the same.....this should mean I am very close to the 24 BTDC.. I may be closer than I think because of low resolution of hash marks on pulleys...wish I had a degree wheel like the drag racers use..I have only set the IP timing on this car with the MV method...never with the drip tube...looks like I am just shy of drip tube spec with the mv method...BUT...I ran out of IP movement when I set it a few days ago because of spring pressure from the lines...there may be some more mv's to get...!...I am about to go bend the lines a bit toward advance to see if I can get more mvs with a little more pump movement after I put it back together .....then recheck drip method...this is very good news.......It was done with the engine cold.....If this is my mv peak...then it is safe on this one because it is just wee bit retarded of perfect..I remember Barry was concerned about too much advance..timing chain almost brand new...engine has about 300,000..I was told by previous owner.....kevin

A really cheap R.I.V. IP timing tool... $25.00 !
 

While "Googling" for "RIVs" I found a lead about a really cheap, $25, RIV type of IP allignment tool... at least for the newer IPs! So as not to be accused of heresy, let me just say check out this WebLink's TREAD at a competing MBZ's Forum:
http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php?t=184
and check out the POST that has the photographs of the RIV and what they call a RIV Lock pin [ p/n – 601-589-05-21-00 ] that is sold by "Rusty" for ~$25.00. I just checked Rusty's WebSite and it responds with "Sorry, this product is temporarily unavailable... "

For something that I would hopefully only need very infrequently, this is my kind of price tag!
Sam

More on R.I.V. locking pins... from Baum Tool!
 

Yes, I determined that the Baum Tool Company makes two versions of their IP Locking Pin... one for old and the other for new Mercedes IPs... see the attached file for description/application/graphics! These should serve at the "Poor-Man's" tool I was looking for... maybe ~$25.00 if the local MBZ Dealer's Parts Counter has nothing or is not competitive with that.
Sam

Kevin, my relief at what you experienced is tangiable. I also feel all other engines will respond simularily for some reason. In a way you have validated the proceedure for injection pump timing with the milli volt method on our older mercedes engines. Or if nothing else moved the possibility of real application ahead by a quantum leap. Yes I was initially very concerned with two much combustion temperature and too much cylinder pressure amoungst other things. Also reinforces my suspicion that perhaps as many as 50% of our old buggys out there are out of time. Also beats interpretation of the drip. Unless you are experienced with social diseases that is.:D Have put about 3500 miles on the old volkswagon after the milli volt retime. With no change other than the higher power and good fuel milage. Believe me I was watching and checking. Your experience last night was good stuff. High side of the peak indicated while still in it? Thanks again Kevin I can now breathe easier. Also looking forward to your posts to come as many others are with additional information. You have also made my day. Sorry also about the uncomforatable heat you have been working in.

o.k.- so i think i am about ready to try this out - i did check individual mv readings and got just shy of 11, no hunting. using a craftsman meter i picked up for $20 on sale.
84 300 td 272,000. smooth runner,good starter,, but dont know about cold starting(winter time).

sam- you are using a series of bannana plugs to tie all gp's together, correct? then hook meter up to this, on relay end of wiring? seems easy enough. I will try to get this done over the weekend, and of course report back here. IP to head allignment is already marked.

Mobetta, probably all the plugs are linked up if you plug the glow harness back in. If so no bannana plugs are required. Just read from any plug using the head to ground your meter to. Watch out you never read the plug with the glow cycle activated. The voltage may damage your meter if not autoranging type. Let us know.

IP Timing
 

Thanks Barry...I have been on the road every day this week so my results are coming in slow....after I get back from North Mississippi tonight I will repeak my 240D advance test and then back to the 300D...The heat is not too bad after the sun goes down but then the mosquitoes line up for supper.....the old dog 300D has enough timing chain slack so that it drags along the road under the engine....will be interested to see how this one times out comparing the two methods.....also got some injector lines bent to build the dynamic test set up........kevin

"mobetta" and "yellit"... more on the Cheap RIV lock-pin...
 

Mobetta - Yes, I used banana plugs plugged into the glow plug harness plug... this makes me feel better because I'm certain they are isolated from any sources of too high a voltages or fluctuations that might cause the meter to float/drift. You can use this hyperlink to find Radio Shack's selection:
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=banana&origkw=banana
I found that the most expensive $8.32/pair are most adjustible and thus easier to use for this test [ up to 5 could be needed! ] ... I think the high price of these is merely because they are also best suited for hooking up audio speakers that popular with the younger set ["boom-boom" in the trunks of their cars]!

Kevin - I can definitely characterize you as "No sooner said that done" kind of guy! We are all waited with baited breath to hear how your "dynamic" fuel lines work out and where you estimate your timing ends up being best.

R.I.V. Locking Pins - "Rusty" has the $26 lock-pin which I can only guess is the one from MBZ. I expect him to follow-up and clarify later as to what he has on the application for this tool... and one of our Forum's sponsors [ I canNOT remember which... it's " Paul "]... he will soon have both of the Baum tools for ~$46 each.

Sam

Barry, you are still out in front, but I'm closing FAST...!
 

This is the tally of how many posts the participants in this THREAD have made!

User Name... # of Posts
barry123400 59
Samuel M. Ross 53
yellit 27
tomnik 11
coldwar 10
JMan300sd 8
mobetta 3
boneheaddoctor 3
Brian Carlton 3
jbaj007 2
Old300D 2
dieselnut14 2
BobK 2
phidauex 1
Matt L 1
Pete Burton 1
Mitch H 1
slowmike 1
tjohn 1
snakesausage 1
Whiskeydan 1
vstech 1

First of all, it's not an "RIV" locking pin. The RIV tool is an electronic device that does not lock the IP.......it simply measures the point at the exact top of the V notch. The locking pin is inserted in the side of the newer style pumps and can engage the "V" notch in the IP. It's a very poor design and the slot in the tool is about the width of a screwdriver slot.

It's very easy to slide right past the slot and attempting to engage the slot by yourself while turning the crankshaft is nearly impossible.

Once you do get the slot engaged, you can read the crankshaft damper for the IP timing. But, you can't rotate the IP at this point. The tool must be removed, the IP adjusted, and the tool reinserted yet again.

Don't bother with this tool........it's a waste of time.

This morning I talked to a 2nd Bosch Service in another town.
The reaction there was even more disappointing, while the facts (how to adjust what) are clear.
He was less interested in the mV phenomenon than my little sister.
“Maybe it will work…”.
BTW, this is a common behaviour also in other business.
Barry, you were right how you understand my yesterday’s visit at the Bosch.
Back to the mV:
Before touching the elements I had around:
14, 13, 9, 14, 12. This showed me the weak #3. The engine did run well, but I expect an improvement. During adjustment I had the impression of smoother idle and better response. I hope to get the licence plates within the next days (serious trouble with the traffic ministry, fighting for a smaller front plate). Since now I made about 800 miles with “transfer plates” of a car seller.
I am sure that the previous pump just was out of individual quantity causing rough idle. But now it is back from the pump shop and waiting as a spare.

If there is no special mission for me from your side right now I want to learn something about the absolute mV, like mine now approx. 11 on each cylinder. Is this value in relation with the “health status” of the engine? What could be the max. mV? And where is the limit for the resulting temps. before the pistons start melting?
This was one advice of the 1st Bosch boy, melting the piston by too much fuel. Beyond too much he said the temp. would drop. Unburned fuel, because simply too much to burn, will cool down the cylinder.
I will try to get in contact with Bosch engineers for diesel and learn about i.e. injected quantities with tolerances and how much this changes when I turn the element form one extreme to the other. Or, now I start dreaming, taking a mV adapted pump to the shop and check the quantities, compare with specs and with these results I could see if the adaptation was fine tuning (when within specs) or even the engine is worn (when mV is equal, but the necessary quantity is far off specs) or something else.

Sam, I promise to take lessons instead of adding german writing:D

Tom

Tom, the ideal of the pistons melting was in refference to a cylinder with a larger compression drop than 2 bar being corrected. Perhaps say 6 bar different for example might be bad. Or perhaps a element out of sequential timing advanced too far. Or the whole pump advanced too far in relation to the engine. We will be able to measure the exact internal flame temperature within 40 deegrees F or perhaps 20 degrees C soon I hope although that remains to be seen. A gentleman on another site Has worked this out. We will have to try to contact him and see if he will participate on our site. His name is crossbones on the site mentioned in post #120 on this thread. Have a look yourself. It is well worth reading. I hope he will participate as his large knowledge is needed. My hope is he has people very interested on our site to involve himself with even if some like myself are a little backward in comparison. At least we have the same interests I believe. Plus he would be aware this should be done. If you have not read what is eventually possible read his posts. Your original glow plug readings where really all over the place. The indication of a healthy well running engine is more the simularity ( or sameness) of voltages rather than the amount. We will all together make a manual of instructions to use this system for everybody after awhile. This will help make misteaks almost impossible. Plus allow everybody to use and understand what they are doing. It will be a challenge to do this. I personally want to see guys like you, Kevin, Sam and Mobetta plus many others involved in it as you are now. I was glad to hear your idle was smoother as well. In theory your engine should perform a little better too. :) Just keep being involved and posting. Your input has been great and very helpful to all the people reading this thread. Already you have expanded possibilities a lot. Thanks.

Tom, on that now spare pump you just got back. Perhaps the people at the shop might tell you if the quantity of fuel per element was out before they balanced it. You might like that information as well for refference. If it indeed was the reason the pump was not proper. They should remember. Just a thought.

IP Stuff
 

Found another post that talks about the advance for the 123 diesels is part of the mechanism that also operates the vacuum pump...centrifugal force weights that advance the pump with rpm increase.....kevin