head bolt size/description.
 

Sam, just got my 12mm serrated wrench out of the toolbox for 12 point metric socket head screws. Checked fit as well in head bolt. Just in case the tool description helps you.

must read.
 

Mobetta, thanks for digging that up. It will save time and give us information that otherwise we will have to struggle to obtain. Kevin, I will drop him a message to find out how he determined the point of detonation temperature that was dangerous. That of course was the other reason I thought about staying just on this side of the plateau. The other thing I was using was the mpg thing. I felt if it was overtemperature the milage per gallon would have been too great. It is not on the volkswagon. Just good and healthy.And at the top of the known range for them. Kind of a must read in my opinion for anyone interested. What we could learn from this guy. Also what could be saved in development. Also the application manual may exist already. A massive saving in everything. Again thanks mobetta as I feel the load coming off. I think a must read. At the least it validates the ideals. Could not ask for anything better at this point.

Well I have some homework to do over the next few days. Learning curve ahead. I posted on their site and will be asking some others that appear to be experts in this some questions and awaiting replies. Oddly enough it appears that the glow plugs can be used to give the combustion temperature within 40 degrees as well. Most of our beliefs so far seem accurate to some extent but they have taken it much further. A massive effort was done at one point. Much to learn and sort out ahead. It definatly looks like it will enhance the struggle.. I will try to absorb all I can.

Very interesting thread guys!

My thought is the previous mentioned R-C LP filter values may be a bit too slow to see adjustment changes. Of course, I guess there's thermal mass to stabilize as well so...

Whiskeydan, My thought was it also sees the low resistance glow circuit load and adjusts fast enough. The main thing I was concerned with was to stabilise the last didgit like a rock until the average really changed. Saying that though I agree there might be better values. Or perhaps never required anymore if one grounds to the block with a meter lead. I have just finished emailing some questions looking for some important answers. Hope those guys check their emails frequently.

Guys...I think the hanging "Jig" is up!
 

Seriously, let me report that Kevin [ “ yellit ” ] and I have batted around [ off THREAD ] the idea of hanging the adjustment “ jig ” off of two head bolts like the expensive store-bought tool and finally dropped it because it would tie into the IP so close to its pivot point that it would be difficult for it to handle the heavy spring load of the steel fuel lines. It's just too close to the pivot that is the shaft of the IP.

I think Kevin shares with me the opinion that coming off the head bolts is not practical unless you design a lot of “beef” into the apparatus and it would also have to have extremely fine threads… maybe 32/in. There is just not a lot of room to do this unless you have a R&D machine shop!

Our present intent is to look further at another idea we had... the use of a length of 1/8” steel cable that would loop over the engine, thread its way through openings in the manifolds going down, loop under the right motor mount [passenger side]… pass back up through the manifolds again and over the valve cover again and then attach to Kevin’s lever tool handle via an adjustable "jig"... at a nice, high, position on his tool's pipe handle where it can really benefit from the mechanical advangtage of his new tool. We also came up with a $15 roller that would sit on top of the valve cover where the cables would pass... this to reduce the sideways force the cable might impart on the cover otherwise.

Besides simplicity, I think the cable idea also can be “rigged” in such a way that the cable itself [ when tightened ] would slip around the curve of the pipe handle of Kevin’s tool and thus give us a 2-to-1 mechanical advantage right off. This just means that our threaded adjuster will have to be longer to be able to take up the extra cable. A heavy turnbuckle first comes to mind. The cost of the cable rig would be peanuts if it pans out!

Right now we are brainstorming on how to make his leverage tool strap down more securely to the IP without endangering or breakage of the aluminum body of the IP or the element parts on the top of the IP.

Keep your thinking and ideas about our ideas/problems coming our way!
Sam

I will try to pass along anything I pickup. I did find today that to do the static adjustment in a refference somewhere. That was to loosen the line fittings first. I am starting to get a picture of how hard you guys have been working at this adjustment tool. I know it's difficult. One has to wonder why those lines are so stiff or why they did not wind a coil into them. My email did not deliver to the guy I thought would have the best information for us unfortunatly. Hope I can find another still active guy. I will keep trying. It looks like the knowledgable fellow quit posting because of lack of interest. We could use certain information. He had evolved it so far very few could probably follow him. The equipment requirements had really grown. Including a lot of software programs. Another thing was after all that effort he found the ideal and development of it was patented only a year before . He tried to aquire one himself. One of the glow plug manufacturers none the less had beaten him. To think you can get really no easy adjustment lattitude at all basically. Same problem faces you Sam even for the piezo device I imagine. If you need dynamic movement. The bright light is the 240d may not be as stiff. I will still try to find this guy. Made interesting reading of what was possible but was mostley beyond our needs. Because the modern diesel injection pump is a computor controlled item to some extent this approach will fade into history I imagine after awhile. You just sit in the passenger seat and change the program or whatever you want for the pump on a laptop in a modern diesel even the timing function while someone is driving.

240D IP advance
 

Let car idle till all glow plugs stabilized at negative 6.2 to negative 6.3 mv....I could reverse the leads to make the reading positive on the meters but it does not matter.....loosened all 4 hold down nuts/bolt till finger tight only....cranked car and mv dropped slightly because of chain torque on IP....moved the IP with my lever bar until I could not move it any more because of IP line (spring)...the highest mv reading I could get was 6.7 to 6.8...about half a mv like Barry had in his first test...It may have gone higher but could not move IP without something else....I relaxed the lever and mv's drifted back down to the starting point and the rpm increased.....then back to my high reading as I took the lever in the advance direction with an rpm decrease...locked it down @ 6.8 mv....Engine started fine and has more pedal left at 55 mph than before....motor smoother and quieter and the whine that was there is much less....it almost drives like a real car.....it was actually picking up speed going uphill.........the phrase (kind of floats along now) is the best description of what it feels like...(that is Barrys descrip.).hard to put into words these small signals that we are aware of but definite improvement over original setting...I am leaving it set there until I can move it some more to see if I have the peak....had 4 digital meters reading all the glow plugs during this procedure..they all agreed with little hunting effect....I think poor grounds contribute to hunting problem ....my 240D is one heavily grounded vehicle with 4 gauge tin plated aircraft ground straps on everything....no more electrical problems here!.There is a slight lag between moving the IP and mv changes...but an easy trend to follow..I think this works guys...for a poor lazy mans IP timing chore.....I would like to set up a lap top with sensors to graph this stuff...engine temp...exhaust temp...mv and such to compare diff. IP settings........running on diesel and biodiesel...much more to figure out for us practical types.... just trying to get the best out of our old diesel beasts.....Cheers!.....kevin

Kevin,
Great news fellow "Reb"... great post ! Now if we could just come up with an easier, more practicable way to either:
(1) securely latch onto and safely torque the IP, or
(2) relax the " spring " in these over-designed heavy fuel lines.

I for one cannot let go of this just yet, this" ... poor.. man's IP timing chore..." that we are so close to developing all because of Barry's THREAD ... I must think some more about the possibilities of these two numbered items above and see what I can come up with.

I also read the THREAD from the 2005 alternative fuel FORUM shown earlier... http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...821#4981009821
and I canNOT help but wonder about how factual is the report that there was a patent taken out by one of the glow plug manufacturers. Do you suppose this same manufacturer is also the maker of these in-line, sequential IPs, and also the very expensive bench setup/test equipment that the injection pump shops all over the world purchase to perform their service? These $100,000 pieces of equipment were a must when they were first produced, but I think we might be seeing but a fringe of a bigger story... one of how someone is trying to delay this simplier, less expensive technology from being marketed... and a 2nd economic factor might just be that these older, mechanically injected, diesel cars are from too far in the past for these same manufacturers to be interested in trying to make a buck from what is a relatively simple timing method? Food for thought!

Sam

For information only. I know this isn't what you all are trying to accomplish, but the "Neanderthal" technique mentioned in this article has some interesting info:

http://diymbrepair.com/easley/iptiming.htm

Just try to relax Guys [and Gals if you are out there!? ]…
 

that is try to relax those thick-walled steel fuel lines that Kevin is having such trouble twisting with his heavy timing tool.

I have an idea that I want to bounce off of this group. This is intended to be a preliminary “static” procedure [engine off ] that Kevin might try and BEFORE he makes another attempt to further “dynamically” time his car with his “beefy” tool :

(1) Car normal… no tools installed… car/engine static,
(2) Loosen and/or remove the small braces that clamp each fuel line to the adjacent fuel lines,
(3) Note and/or mark the flange of both IP and engine so you know where they are,
(4) Loosen all the bolts/nuts that lock the IP into position… but do this such that those that are hardest to get to are the most loose… and leave the one that is most accessible… leave it for further loosening/tightening later,
*(5) Install whatever means you can to temporarily (but safely ) apply a substantial torque to the IP twisting, pushing, its top frame towards the engine. Then apply just enough force to take up any slack that might exist between the tool/jack and the body of the IP… and then an additional small force [ your judgement call here],
(6) Loosen [just a little] each and every one of the upper nuts that hold the fuel lines to the injectors… and then observe whether the IP's timing marks have shifted any,
(7) Retighten and torque these upper fuel line nuts at the injectors and finally,
(8) Repeat (6) above but this time loosening all of the nuts on the fuel lines at the bottom where they attach to the IP elements… again observing any changes in the IP's timing,

*This [(5) above] might be accomplished by a 2nd person using a strap pipe wrench, or maybe a low profile “spot” hydraulic or scissor jack placed between the IP and the fender wall… any way you can… SAFELY. This means that with jacks I would put something soft [ but substantial ] as uniformly spaced between the jack the outside wall of the IP distributing the force along the IP's frame.

OK Guys, there it is… preliminary steps intended only to relax the fuel lines... and the best thing about it is that you should know before you finish whether or not you have accomplished any good! TELL US WHAT YOU THINK !

Barry – If this [or an improved version] works as well as I think it has potential to work, don't you thing there might not even be an need to use an adjustable “jig” to precisely make our “dynamic” IP-to-Engine timing adjustment ?! Who knows Kevin's heavy torque tool might not be needed... maybe then we could torque the IP by a much simplier tool/lever attached only to the front end of the IP... who knows!

Thanks " jbaj007 ",
Sam

Kevin, If you are burning biodiesel in this car you might be okay. I do not know. If burning diesel I think the percentage gain may be a little too much for our current knowledge but not certain. Gain of .5 on a 6.3 base average for example. Versus my .5 on a 13 average. Also your unknown peak may enter the equation in some way. Or you had reached it but do not know and are well into it. You also had changed the chain out a year ago and reset the timing I assume. Original engine timing marks may or may not mean much in the future but for now we have to consider them. Not treat them as a distant relative. Yours sounds like a full millivolt or slightly higher in comparison to my gain. . We do not know if comparisons are valid yet from base numbers. Plus to be fair we are talking apples and oranges, volkswagons and mercedes. They may or may not be. I would swap one glow plug from your other engine temporarily and check the mv output. 6.3-6.8 is the lowest I have ever heard of I believe and from others knowledge on our site. Also my idle did quiet noticably as well but I do not think I had posted that. Would have been too much to believe and it was much smoother as well. The result you would normally think caused by retarding the pump rather than advancing it. There was no reduction in my idle speed either. It sounded the same or slightly faster. Might have been decieving though as had no tach.We have a little more lattitude with the 240ds to start with as they are not turbocharged to assist in building too much combustion heat. For the time being you might want to slide back to a .3 mv gain and see what drivability is like. You have helped again though. Safety might be acertained by reading exhaust temperatures as the limit for safety there is well known and I like your suggestion. I am slowley learning we might be on our own as a group basically with not much pre-existing knowledge available to help us. Hope that thought is wrong. Other forums will be starting to follow us though. They have already a little. What are your basic thoughts? I know setting back a little is like cutting your arm off. I too found power was corrupting.:D You already have the symptoms of wanting more.:D At this stage only the two of us understand the feeling.:D On the otherhand this is kind of a proven thing to some extent now.I know there are many things to work out yet but it is now inevitable this will go to a conclusion. We just have to wait awhile to start getting all the answers. I personally wonder where your fuel milage is now. That may be why you should establish if 30 mpg is available at a .3 mv advance from the timing marks first perhaps. Our final indicators may turn out to very simple over time. You are probably more knowledgeable than me as you are trying to dial into the whole picture. Power is really, really corrupting remember.:D Glad you can now accelerate going uphill. On a 240d we need a video camera on the speedometer to verify. Otherwise who is going to believe it. :rolleyes: On the otherhand over the last couple of years I have heard of certain 240ds that would do this also making me think about where we are now. It has to be the answer somehow. I myself would not have really believed it except I have one as well. More input coming along from more people I hope. The more the easier this becomes. Also we will have to determine soon how many tenths of a milivolt indicate how many degrees to add rationality to discussions. Plus the missing ingredient to form intelligent formulas for applications. It too should come. I am not preaching either. Just wanting everyone to play it a little on the safe side as I am sure Kevin does until knowledge increases. As for myself I almost vetoed the concept of the timing marks not being good for us except for the repeditive nature of certain 240ds I heard of. Plus my 1979s unusual performance and milage. That car should undergo a real critical examination one of these days. Still too many large alligators right now in my life to do it. Tops 100 plus abnormal good fuel milage. Perhaps the vendor swapped the trunk label on me. I still only count four plugs though. Have not checked the speedometer calibration nor verified the speed other than I chased it home for 1700 miles with a friend driving it. Eventually I got in front of him but he would drop way back and accelerate up to my bumper defeating my attempt to slow him down somewhat. I was driving the tdi all the way and could observe the performance. Had to tell him twice at fuel stops that anything over ninety was overspeeding the injection pump. Tire sizes are 175 euopean designation. Never was drove again except for one return trip to the american border to pick up papers by me. It is not very noisey at speed either where my other one sounds like a thrashing machine and is slow in comparison. Yet basically has a sound engine. Sorry about the post length and broad coverage. All of the above just seems too important to not mention. Objectivity has to be retained as well. Or at least to some extent. Therfore I apoligise about my over enthiusiastic feeling. I also can remember another emotion not that long ago.

IP Event
 

Hello all...a little more detail on the (moving) last night....there is only about 1/4" of IP adjustment available from stop to stop...if that much...with my .6 mv increase the marks were only about .060" from my original punch marks....after the new timing chain last year I did not retime it...It improved so much I was not thinking about timing back then....there is less than probably 1000 miles on the chain so it is new for all purposes....the old chain had a lot of stretch and the tensioner and rails were shot too....the IP had no markings on it of any kind before last night so....I may have reached the mv peak and ran out of push but as I locked down the rear bolt.... the mv dropped about .1 mv from my absolute top peak so I am probably not too far into the advance...it was hard to hold the tension while reaching that rear bolt... during moving the only difference was the rpms tracked downward slightly as I advanced the IP and speeded up slightly as I took it toward retard... just like a gas engine will do as you rotate the distributor....I do not think one has to be too concerned with over rotating that IP from where they sit.... with all that injector line tension that IP is simply where it wants to be....I want to take my IP from stop to stop and record all the info along the way if we can get the thing moving....I may even put a degree strip on the engine where the flange meets it and walk through the marks....I am thinking the best settings may be different at higher rpms than at idle but that will unfold as we time these things...will try to do more this weekend...I am taking all the lines off and see how easy that thing will move....I may even bend three sets of lines...full retard...dead center...full advance and note the changes...I have never had any problem cranking these after doing any fuel system or injector changes including line removal...I just bleed the big fuel filter and pump till no more air...cranks right up...Since we are in the real world and not a lab this is all I can do for now...I am not too worried about (messing up my engine because surely someone over its 280,000 miles has tried to mess it up somewhere) ( the damn thing fights back when you try to do something wrong)...I do have the fuel line spacers removed while trying to move these pumps but still tough...kevin

Could it be that MB intended that once the timing is set up at the factory, it should be locked down and never need to be touched until a major overhaul is needed, in which case all special tools and equipment would be available to the re-builder???;)

Dave in Snackville

Kevin, It sounds like you could use an extra pair of hands...
 

and being from your area there near Jackson, Ms... I wish I were in a position to drop everything and "Come on down!" ... but that's not the case.

I see that you have gone a step or two beyond my last POST where I was trying to lessen the "spring" in the fuel lines. Your idea of pre-bending them so each line wants to pull the IP toward the engine should certainly help you advance the timing and find if you have found your peak mv timing set. This same thing crossed my mind as I wrote my last POST.

I have house guests this W.E. so everyone will have a rest from my impetuous keyboard!

Great work Kevin,
Sam

Dave, I guess the primary reason is to reduce vibration fatigue. Of course there probably are a few other things. They will fatigue break eventually even as thick and strong as they are. Just a shame Sam and Kevin have to struggle with them. Now if they could just learn to bend silverware with their minds as was once a popular act they would have it beat.;)

IP dynamic timing
 

How about this one guys...Get a slightly longer IP line set up...straight lines at first then bend all into an upside down U....one set of ends attach to the IP and the other end to the injectors...the taller the upside down U...the easier it is to move the IP...one could go as far as a loop instead.....I do not think the extra length would much affect the MV peak because the solid nature of the fuel column in the lines...of course this could be used with any timing method.......easy to change back to stock lines and recheck peak mv/drip count/strobe light/ luminosity probe/well up/ or other....should be very close....... anyone....??....kevin

Kevin & I have been going hot & heavy OFF-Forum...
 

and I think his idea of having 5 specially made up "U" shapped steel fuel lines is pure genius in it's simplicity and all-but-guaranteed to work... albeit expensive for one person to do have fabricated. Maybe we can share among us and possibly donate it to the Forum as a LOANER later !

Strap Wrench Idea
Now for my part I have been wracking my brain and "Goooogling" all over the InterNet trying to find my perfect " strap wrench " that should be able to give us the torque [even heavy torque] we have been looking for... while minimizing the potential for damage to the IP's "body".
Take a look at: http://wantasub1.stores.yahoo.net/strapwrenches.html
and you will see a 3-set line of strap wrenches that have 12, 18, and 24 inch heavy duty handles and up to 44" of strap. See attached graphic for ease of visual reference.

I figure that [IF necessary] I could make the following modifications:
(a) shorten the heavy metal handle and then use a "pipe cheater" as necessary,
(b) cut off some of the extra long/wide synthetic strap, and
(c) use the cut-off strip to trim/narrow and also reinforce the strap where passes on the top of the IP.
I think I would probably get the 24" handle and extra long [44"] strap.

OK, I'm very hopefully of this imaginary baby... now will my design pass your scrutiny? Go ahead, take your best shot.. I want you to... seriously !

Sam

I have NOT abandoned my "strap wrench" idea...
 

but I canNOT slow down the various ideas I keep getting once I accepted that Kevin [ "yellit "] has solved the heavy torque problem. I like the strap wrench idea IF we find ourselves once again facing a need to safely apply a heavy torque to the IP without damaging it.

Adjustable Slip-Nut Wrench - I saw one of these in the local Ace Hardware and I'm sure that many of you will recognize it [ see attached graphic ] and read more about it at: http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-301-wrenches/adjustable-slip-nut-wrench-198010.aspx

IF [I repeat IF] Kevin's new set of temporary “low-spring” IP fuel lines really does as good a job as I expect they will, this light duty wrench might be adequate to torque the IP by slipping it over the squared flange just as his first torque tool was made to do… but let’s say that it “wobbles” too much so as to cause difficulty in trying to hold and "jockey" a particular mv reading from the glow plugs
[IP timing setting]! Well as I see it, you could measure the OD of the squared off IP body part with a caliper and use this to take this cheap plumber's adjustable wrench, align and permanently weld it so that it no longer “wobbles”. I would initially purposely make it a tiny bit smaller than the IP body... and then file/grind it larger until achieving a really “snug” fit. My MBZ mechanic friend would probably want to line the jaws with soft metal such as copper or aluminum [what about neoprene] so as NOT to cause too many marks or otherwise damage the stampings and s/n plates that are usually mounted on the side of the IP body flange.

Help me out here guys... take some shots at these ideas that are coming too fast for me to objectively evaluate on my own!
Sam

individual readings
 

Yesterday I got crazy when I tried to increase the mV at #3.
BTHW: new IP, new GPs, balanced new Injectors, #3 was a bit low in compression check result.
Is this the reason for low mV in #3?
Can we compare the mV-output for the 619.95x in general for the health of our engines? I got +- 11.x mV.
I could not see the systematic in adjusting. I touched one and had changes in the others. What a trouble.
I stopped late at night when the neighbours reminded me of idling for hours!
The result was a variation of 0.3 mV. Is this o.k.?
Did you find a system for adjustment to be more efficient?

Tom

glowplug mv variations
 

Hello Tom...What vehicle is this on?......sounds like you may have a grounding problem with the measurement...On my 240D I found the most solid mv reading if negeative meter lead attached to head...only about .1 to .2 diff on all 4 glowplugs...my readings were 6.3 mv average peaked to about 6.8 with IP rotation toward advance...also some meters read better than others....kevin

Welcome to the fray Tom...
 

but please tell us, are you trying to adjust the IP's primary timing... and why do this while monitoring cylinder #3's injection fuel line? That's my initial take on you what you said in your POST. And what is with all these replacements [ including IP ? ].

I'm sure I speak for several others when I ask that you give us a synopsis of what is your vehicle, where you have been, and where you are trying to go !!!

Then maybe some of your questions might make more sense to us!
Sam

Yes, low compression amoung a lot of other things could make #3 cylinder low in milli volt reading. Have you done a compression check? Have you swapped injectors with one next door yet? Check and adjusted valves? Calibrated glow plugs? Or at least swapped it with a neighbour? In the vast majority of cases it will be found to be other than the injection pump sequential timing. That should never be attempted unless there is knowledge someone has tampered with it for sure. Then you have nothing to lose as the pump is otherwise is on the way to the pump shop. But to locate and identify problems in cylinders and rectify them it is a very useful tool. It may even indicate the sequential pump timing might be off but again if you are not aware of someone tampering with it you should take the pump to a shop to have it checked out. After you have eliminated all other probable causes of low milli volt reading on that cylinder of course. That is the true strength of this method. You can eliminate almost all other causes and the initial indication you might have a weak or underproducing cyllinder is indicated quite clearly. Consider it primarily a tool to indicate all is not well. Or to eliminate guessing. Plus once the problem is found and repaired the voltage will go higher on that cylinder all by itself. Beats guessing. Still not a shortcut though. And yes with very little work it will indicate the overall power balance of our engines. You have to verify the glow plugs have simular outputs or calibration if on the first check all does not seem well. Best probable method right now is to rotate all the glow plugs one at a time to the same cylinder. That allows you to see if they all indicate the same output on that cylinder. If not your glow plugs are no good for a real overall check of things. That is all glow plugs indepedently reading about the same voltage. If not it should pay to find out why they are not. With this method that is a pretty cheap thing to accomplish. But the last possibility has to be the injection pump absolutly not the first thing. Like anything relatively new it takes awhile to understand what you are doing. Helps you avoid heavy garage charges if used properly to some extent as well. That is important to a lot of us I believe. If not positive of what you are doing wait for an operation manual to be produced a little down the road. What was your original milli volt variation on number three? The 619 has hydralic lifters I imagine? Also how much lower was the compression on that number three cylinder if you know? Not trying to be hard just do not want people to make their situations worst by not really understanding. Ask questions first not after the fact unless you are certain. The members do not mind. We all want to try to help each other out....As a poster suggested give us all the inforrmation to have a look at.

Kevin and Sam, yes the longer lines for testing purposes sound sensible. The fuel pulse speed is so high that the additional length is okay in my opinion. Wonder if a guy could get two sets of lines off junkers and perhaps use 6mm compression fittings. I think they are good to 3500 lbs. Or better and safer yet silver solder a sleeve on the lines to connect them. Or perhaps there is a fitting to join the threaded couplings in the middle available. Custom made lines might be a problem to make or perhaps not. This may have to be the way.

Tom... I see you are either in or from Eastern Europe?...
 

so I apologize for I know my/our use of colloquial English might make it difficult for you… assuming English is a 2nd language for you. Are you from Eastern Europe. My Mercedes [ MBZ ] mechanic friend here in Novato, California is from Hungary and his English is a still “rough”… still very much a second language for him ! I’m his English language “clarifier” on technical matters and we drink a lot of coffee together !

I have traveled to ~25 countries in my life but really only speak/write English well [ some of the time! ]. So let me try and re-write my previous POST:

1. Is English a second language for you?
2. Please tell us what model/year/miles on engine/ transmission etcetera your car has.
3. What specifically it is that you are trying to accomplish or repair on your car or is it that you just want to contribute and participate to our diesel MBZ discussion?
4. Why was the Injection Pump [IP] replaced?

Sam Ross // Novato, California

Lines...
 

That it!!!...I could silver solder two sawed off Injector ends together and attach 2 lines together to make one long line....or two element nipples either way....I have spare lines...we are glad to have you back Barry!...kevin

O.k. I'll try again
 

Sam:

1. Is English a second language for you?

Yes/Western GERMANY (Do I have an accent?:confuse d: )

2. Please tell us what model/year/miles on engine/ transmission etcetera your car has.

Sorry, 617.95x engine of course, in a 300 SD of 82

3. What specifically it is that you are trying to accomplish or repair on your car or is it that you just want to contribute and participate to our diesel MBZ discussion?

I am not new to Diesels esp. MBz. I bought this California car more or less directly from a guy in Nevada two years ago. I participate to our forum quite often, thanks for this.

4. Why was the Injection Pump [IP] replaced?

I had the chance to get a brand new IP for little money while the existing one caused rough idling and poor power.
And I want to have a perfect car.


For this reason I:

Adjusted valves
Replaced nozzles (new 259 instead of the original 240) and adjusted/balanced injectors
All GPs new
Compression check showed #3 approx. 25 bar all others 27/28 bar

What I wanted to say is that the #3 mV reading seams to correspond with the difference in compression. So far, so good.
For this reason I tried to increase the mVs on #3 but as someone already wrote some others changed too. Why do the others change and where is the trick to win earlier?
As an intermediate result (before the neighbour came) I had approx 11 mV with a max. difference of 0.3 mV. My VM did not jump or hunt.

Before setting the IP with the mV in detail (did it with the drop method some weeks ago), I want to see the same mV reading on each plug.

It seams to me that the pump was perfect on the bench but needs some adaptation to my engine. But playing with the single elements is time and brain intensive fun.

Kevin, be careful when soldering the lines. Covering the connection area with a flexible hose (PE, PA or PVC) could protect you from the spray in case of leaking.

Sorry again for my bad English.

Tom
(from WestCoast Germany :cool: )

IP mv
 

Thanks for the leak warning Tom...I will wrap the soldered line and wear safety goggles & gloves....Greetings from Mississippi USA....Are you reading the glowplugs unconnected from the relay ? Have you tried another glowplug in #3 ?... My friend here owns a diesel injection shop..he says after the elements are set it is best to leave them where they were set at the factory....You might try adjusting the valves again on #3...How are you reading the glow plugs ? what kind of meter ? Your English is much better than my German.....kevin

Tomnik, I was the other fellow who messed with the fuel elements and had a hard to time adjusting them to get them to match each other, because as you said....as you adjust one, it changes the readings on the others. I got mine all within .3-.5 mV from each other, but I still feel my injection could be better. I am going to wait untill I replace my injectors, ream my glowplug holes (all of the gp's were replaced at the same time less than 4 months ago, but the holes werent reamed), add my new rack dampener pin (dont know if this will do anything) and adjust my valves. I have been meaning to do this for quite some time, but have not been able to do so because of time and money (about to move).

After one full tank since adjusting my fuel elements I have already gotten 2.3 more miles per gallon. This to me seems substantial, especially considering that my mV readings were still more variable than they probably should be. But, still even with that increase I am only getting 22.8 miles per gallon (mixed highway/city), so I obviously have a ways to go. I will examine several fillups and do those repair/maintenance issues before I make any further assesments or adjustments.

Thanks Kevin,
I read the glowplugs unplugged in the socket to the relay. Cylinder # are marked in the socket easy to jump from cylinder to cylinder.
I know #3 is little lower in compression so my input to the forum might be the fact that I read the compression difference in the mV of #3.
Anyway with an equal mV adjustment I will have the optimum in individual cylinder combustion, right? I am nearly sure that the low mV of #3 is a result of lower compression there.
Of course it is best to keep the fingers off of a shop adjusted pump, for 99.9% of their customers. But after the newest mV information I think we can fine tune the adaptation to our engines.
If my engine has no defect at the moment but differences in mV reading of each glowplug with a bench adjusted pump (means in theory no differences in individual output, how could they know about differences in my engine due to wear) then top adjustment can only result from adapting the pump’s setting to the different condition of each cylinder.
The meter is an expensive one, digital. I don’t have it here so I can not give you more details at the moment.

Tom

JMan300sd,
Did you do it with one single meter?
One after the other and then again from the beginning.
Believe me, I know what you are talking about.
I hope to get the car on the road next week to do real performance- and road testing, up to now I worked on the car and converted it to meet German regulations.
I hope the difference in reading remains so the adjustment can be documented. I got mine all within .3 mV from each other, all at about 11 mV at idle when hot.
Mine should run like new or even better, if the theory meets reality.

Tom

IP mv
 

There is nothing you can do to make #3 read the same mv unless the lower compression problem is corrected...changing the mv is not going to alter the compression if the compression value is the cause....like Barry said try all the different glow plugs in #3 to determine if the reading stays the same....If the mv is still lower with all the glow plugs then there is a difference in that cylinder that is there to stay until major work is done...I understand wanting everything to be perfect but sometimes these old diesels are like us old men...just because everthing does not work perfect is no reason to quit living....I have had to accept a lot of things on my 240D that are just going to be there....hope this helps...kevin

Tom... thanks for the additional information...
 

Others on this THREAD [subject] and FORUM will no doubt advise you more about what exactly these “mv” readings from the Glow Plugs might mean. My approach is more “pragmatic” until it has proven to me that I should worry about smaller differences in the readings. I personally see that there are too many reasons for these differences and I [for one person] would not become concerned until I have installed glow plugs that I know produce very close to the same reading when installed in the same cylinder. Once you have done this and found enough glow plugs that read the same, then you can wonder or speculate what the differences mean. This is the same reason why some of the guys have asked you if you moved a glow plug or an injector nozzle to a different cylinder… this to see if the test result also moved.

So unless you have all new or reconditioned injectors/nozzles and new glow plugs that you have proven to generate the same reading in the same cylinder with the engine the same temperature… unless you have these in common, then I would NOT make too much of the differences you have seen for your #3 cylinder. And as others have written, it could be that a valve was misadjusted by whoever worked on the valve adjustments.

For example today I took these mv readings from the glow plugs on my Wife’s parents car [ a 1985 300SD (126W chassis)]:
#1 – 5.2mv // #2 – 4.9mv // #3 - 4.9mv // #4 – 4.8mv // #5 – 5.7mv and finally the average reading of 5.1mv. All readings taken from the glow plug relay connector after engine has been warmed up and operating and the connector disconnected from the relay. The last 5.1mv average reading was taken with all glow plugs connected in parallel. I have special "banana" plugs that make this easy to do.

There is maximum to minimum difference between 5.7 and 4.8mv [ 0.9mv ].
I am not concerned about this because I do not know how long it has been since the last valve adjustment, I do not know what different brands of glow plugs there are in the engine and how long they have been installed. I’m certainly not thinking of trying to re-time and injection pump elements to try and balance my milliVolt [mv] readings. Personally I were you, I would check and make doubly certain the valves on #3 cylinder are properly adjusted. And I would rotate the glow plug in #3 to another cylinder to see if it still reads lower than the others.

I am sure that others will be discussing your car’s situation with you soon!

Sam

Tomink,

I tell you...it was a bear to get as close as I did checking each glow plug independently. It took me several hours. Though as Sam said there are other variables to consider. But because I originally altered the original settings of two of my fuel elements (to fix a fuel leak) I had nothing to really lose by pursuing my endeavours. In fact I initially gained an extra 2.3 mpg. But work is still yet to be done.

Tom... let's see if these computers can translate a good joke...
 

here is the computer's translation:

Tom,
Wenn du denkst, das das Zwingen deiner #3 Glühkerze zu, .3mv und dieses stark zu lesen für dich bearbeitet, denke ich, daß ich meine Kraftstoffanzeige zum "vollen" löte, also ich nie Kraftstoff wieder addieren muß!

Did you see any joke in this translation? Check out this website at:
http://ajax.parish.ath.cx/translator/

Sam

Tomic, this area can be pretty confusing. I understand also what you were thinking I believe. I still would like to know how much lower number three milli volt reading was prior to adjustment. I believe now from your posting it just reflected the known lower compression of that cylinder basically. About two bar or 30 lbs. By masking it you advanced the timing on that element. Not enough to do any harm I believe. Anyone trying this method to cover a cylinder say 8 bar or 100 lbs less is likely to burn a hole in a piston or introduce a serious pre ignition or knocking noise. Do check your valve clearances. There are some misunderestandings present. Before doing anything further contact us beforehand if you are going to. Your english is pretty good and glad Sam picked up that you lived in central europe. Some of your beliefs are a little right but very complex in reality. The theory of this method is not in doubt. But the applications are going to be on some. At this stage I would not have considered movement to cover the underlying problem. I would have tried to fix it first and live with it if inside mercedes allowable cylinder differences. That is if was unrepairable without taking the engine apart.

Kevin,
I can turn the element of #3, sure this will not change the #3 compression, but as I understood so far, finally a balanced “energy” among the cylinders is the goal.
In general, there is no real need for me to touch the mV thing (my engine is said to be one of the best among my diesel-friends).
But fine tuning with the mV method seems very interesting for me, and the bench adjusted spare pump is ready to jump in.

Barry,
The story changes a bit in the moment you say it is element timing not element fuel quantity.
Anyway, the smaller the mV variation the smoother the engine is running. I want to give my input to the forum with a good engine to check out if it is possible to make it better. Most IPs coming back from the shop are working but I believe it could be better.

Sam,
I can see the joke, thx.

I will try to talk to some old Bosch people next days to learn more about the pump esp. the elements.


Thanks so far


Tom

Good Tomic, I thought something in your thoughts might be missing. You are right there is no change in the amount of fuel injected. (for practical purposes) Just the individual cylinder timing changes on number three basically. We do not want to get pre ignition going on any cylinder. For your lower compression cylinder it may be posssible to have an individual injector set up with a slightly lower pop pressure. For very fine tuning purposes.The calculations required for this are quite away in the future. At 2 bar cylinder difference though I do not think it will make very much difference and it is within mercedes allowable engine compression range. . Probably not worth doing in otherwords. You made me think. At present the pump to engine timing approach is possibly going to smooth out your idle and quiet your engine some. But again we have to wait until we know more. It is still very early and takes time. We also have no indication of degrees per 1/10 milli volt yet. That is coming pretty soon. Thanks for sharing. Things will be learnt, by all of us, keep following the subject. :) Having patience is hard I know. Thanks to guys like Sam, Kevin, and yourself and many others it will move ahead.

Kevin, Sam, and all other interested parties. I found out the other day that indeed someone had pioneered the milli volt system. Plus moved very far along the road in 2002 I believe. I have been unable to contact him yet and may never be able to. I think his posting ended in apathy as he had worked out everything in advance. Therfore it was impossible or just too hard for people to grasp the easy stages and build on them. This approach is to let us all work out things as a group. So as we all go along there will be a joint understandings. Already there is evidence that by answering questions and examining results together it will work out. I for one would not hesitate to use it for many things. The principal objectives will probably never change. They are the best fuel milage for type safely and practically, best power safely and again practically, from our engines, and the ability to enhance servicability of these old engines, this includes the ability to at least identify problems that would have just been a case of throwing money at or ignoring in the past. My faith it this is now based on the questions and responses of many posting. I already see evidence of people learning, thinking and sharing. Just too bad the earlier person did not take more into consideration before he posted. This system can be rocket science but that generally goes beyond our needs. I also am aware a lot do not own a meter at this stage. Like most tools it pays for itself over and over.:) What is 10-20.00 or so today? And it can remain useful for a lifetime. The only concern is it must have a milli volt range.

My J-33300-A Tach-N-Time meter...
 

should arrive this week. This is the Kent-Moore instrument that hopefully will allow us to use an inductive timing light to at least easily check the timing on these vintage MBZs. I am anxious to see if we can make the 1/4" clamp-on sensor work on these fuel lines... otherwise we will have to invest in a new sensor specifically made for 6mm!

OK guys, only Kevin [ " yellit " ] has commented [off-Forum] on my idea for using a Adjustable Slip-Nut Wrench. This POST is at: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/152389-setting-pump-primary-timing-milli-volt-method-post1184010.html#poststop.
Take another look at this and tell me if you think of this plumber's wrench idea. Can this wrench be made [welded] to work as a tool for adjusting the IP's primary timing with the engine. These wrenches are available in most ACE Hardware stores for you to look at up close and personal.
Regards,
Sam