My left rear wheel tilts in like this \, what to adjust?
 

..as viewed from the rear of the car

There is not a whole lot of adjustements on the rear, but there are bushings and mounts that wear out.

on my car when i replaced the back shocks it lifted the rearend bacup and straightened the camber out... just my $.02

New springs and 19mm pads on my 420SEL solved the same thing. Shocks too.

thank you for the replies.


what do you mean by 19mm pads?

i do not know 100% but i think he is talking about the thickness of the rubber/plastic on either end of the spring.

The situation as described is positive camber.

However, are you quite sure the LR wheel leans \ as viewed from the rear. The top of the tire is further outward then the bottom of the tire?

If this is truly the case, something is damaged on the subframe. The vehicle will typically have 1 degree of negative camber. If you look closely, you'll typically see the top of the wheel tilted toward the center of the vehicle..........like this: / for the LR wheel.

The negative camber will be increased as the springs sag and the body drops down a bit. When heavily loaded the negative camber will climb over 2 degrees and be quite noticeable. This is normal.

However, if you truly have positive camber, you'll need to make some further investigations as to the cause. It's definitely abnormal.

19mm pads give that amount of lift in addition to what the spring provides.

where can one find replacement pads for the rear springs? the fsm explains how to adjust the springs via 9.5mm, 14mm and 19mm pads. im replacing my rear shocks this week but just wondering where replacement pads can be bought if found that mine are shot.

They are typically a dealer item.

Update and Pictures
 

All,

Ok so I am home now and took another look. Both rear wheels are equally pigeon toed in \ / looking from the rear. See pics, I tried my best to capture it.

Ok, so since they are equally screwed up I am expecting that it was a botched spring replacement. PO put new springs and shocks (off brand) in fairly recently. I dont know if he did it or an indy did it, I guess it doesnt matter.

I am going to poke around this tonight, is there anything I can look for?

thanks,
dd

PS Why does everyone cover up their liscense plate? Is there anything negative that can happen showing my plate? Just wondering.

maybe he got 126 springs and put them in .

tom w

I agree. It doesn't look like it's a**-sitting. Seems like maybe there is too much spring or wrong shocks...too tall???

Dieseldan44, what is the distance from ground to upper most part of inside arch on fenderwell?? This may help.

So if you piss off some phsycopath sonofagun like me I can't hunt you down...:rolleyes: Jus kiddin. I don't know why people do it. Identity theft issues maybe? Who knows?

Back from my inspection...
 

The inner fender sheet metal is 20" off the deck.

It would make sense to me, not knowing much about car suspensions, that the spring is the dominant force in that system. So the spring is too short, pulling the control arm up too much, pulling the wheels in??

dd

Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the tires at all from those pics......

me neither.

tom w

The inner fender sheet metal is not 20" off the deck because the tire is approx. 25".

So, we're looking for a dimension of something between 24" and 27". If the dimension is at the high end of this range, the vehicle is sitting high in the rear...........resulting in positive camber. But, it would have to be quite high to achieve this.

My '86 sits higher than desired by about 1/2" or so........and it's at 27".......the camber is very close to zero.

I'll measure again.

Can anyone see the pics?

Re-measured
 

25.75" from the floor to the top of the fender.

I put the tape measure right against the outside of the wheel measuring up to the fender.

My previous measurement was on the inside equivalent, right under the sway bar.

dd

Planning on doing some additional inspection tonight - is there any way to check if the springs are correct without removing them?

Try replacing the back of your Mercedes shocks it could it can change the curve on your camber and can lift your rear end... It worked on me...

Too much lift
 

If the fuel tank is full, spare tire + tool kit are there, and the car is on a LEVEL floor???

The only answer is...

Excess lift in the rear:

* Wrong spring shims.
* Wrong shocks.
* Wrong springs.



Have a great day.

Glad to narrow it down...
 

My tank has maybe 5-8 gallons in it, and the spare tire is in there. No first aid kit though :-)

Awesome, Im happy its narrowed down. Can someone suggest what order I investigate?

I would think that checking the shocks is first. Thats the easiest to remove I think, and therefore the easiest for someone to replace incorrectly.

Ill have to do some research on how to remove the springs, which I know I at least would need a spring compressor. Any suggestions on where/how to learn?

dd

At first glance, the number of 25.75" doesn't appear to be excessive, however, I don't have a good baseline for the W-123. Can you take a photo of it and post the photo? I think we need to see the size of the fenderwell opening above the tires.

The suggestion of the shock as the culprit is likely erroneous. A brand new shock will provide a small amount of lift to the rear of the vehicle. If a brand new shock is the culprit...........you cannot easily make the argument that you need a "weak and old" shock to cure the problem. You could remove the two rear shocks and see how much the rear of the vehicle drops. But, a drop of about 1/2" would be typical and would not be indicative of a problem with the shocks.

If a PO installed shocks that provide more lift than the stock Bilsteins, then there might be an argument to change them. But, personally, I do not see the shocks as offering sufficient lift to make the difference.

It's possible that springs with greater lift were installed.........or a thicker spring pad was installed........by a PO at an earlier time.

Brian - can you not see the tires in my earlier post because the picture qualiaty is bad, or because the picture will not load?

Either way I will repost a pic ASAP.

I saw this description in another thread, is this a correct (safe) procedure for removing rear springs (if I need to):

Jay - if you read this, abolsutely no offense intended - Im just scared of those big springs since ive never done it before and just want to double check. This seems like a perfectly logical procedure...

Lightened and edited photos
 

Since im away from the car at the moment, here are photos that have been lightened to highlight the tires.

The previous photos were taken from the rear of the vehicle and do not show the height of the body as viewed from the side. Additionally, the photos are too dark to determine camber of the wheels.

I cannot comment on the procedure as I've not done it. However, the subframe would need to drop quite a bit to release the springs in the manner described. There would be significant bending occurring in the two foward mounting points for the subframe in this condition. This may or may not be acceptable.

I took the photo of the LR tire and adjusted the brightness. I do not see any positive camber from that photo. However, the resolution is not good due to the distance involved.

Please take a 24" level and place it across the face of the tire vertically.

Report back with results. You may not have any issue........other than the appearance of the tires.

ok - ill take some more pictures ASAP.

This is a basic operation W123 or W126
 

Replacing the Rear Shocks & Springs
on the W126 1985 300SD
http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/W126RearShocksSprings

DMV stores too much info about you with the license plate, like name, address, etc.

My father rec'd a phone call at his place of work by some psycho that did not appreciate his fast driving.

New Pictures
 

Took some more pics. I couldnt find my level, so I put a square against the tire instead. I think the pic from the rear with the square the shows the camber pretty well. To get a good reading I really need a level, Ill have to continue searching for mine or grab one from work later.

Before I took these pics I checked the tire pressue and brought it up to 32. The tire size is indeed P195/70 R14. I remeasured the ride height, it is about 25.5"-25.75" to inner fenderwall. Hopefully these pics are better and helpful to everyone trying to help me...the one of the whole car was taken in the fall...we have 12" of snow outside right now so I cant take a perfect one from the side till later.

Does anyone know the W123 ride height and camber spec?

Brian, I dont know if Ive shown what would best here, once I get my level do you want me to lean it against the face of the tire and snap a pic from the rear? Whats the best way to meaure camber?

Thanks again,
dd

With a height of 25.5" and the photos that you've shown, I don't see how the camber can be positive.

Put the level against the face of the tire. It will be out of plumb. Pull the top of the level.........or the bottom of the level.......off the face of the tire until the level is perfectly plumb. Measure the gap (you need a helper) between the level and the face of the tire. Note whether the gap is at the top or the bottom.

Report back with results of where the gap is located (top or bottom) and the size of the gap.

Repeat for the right side.

Results
 

Brian,

Got a chance to do this yesterday:

RR tire looks like this tire -> / | <- level

Measuring on the face of the tire I get a .75" gap over a 20" span. Meaning that the tilt is arctan(.75/20) = 2.14 degreees tilt. I don't know what this would be in % camber.

LR is the same.

Does this make sense? I think this is way out of spec.

-dd

How it is with the E-Brake applied, front wheels chocked and the tranny in drive? My car sits a bit high in the rear like other 123's but "squats" or levels out when in drive.

Will try tonight.

Please confirm whether the gap is at the top or the bottom of the tire. From your sketch, it appears to be at the bottom of the tire.

If this is correct, the camber is heavily positive and something is definitely amiss.........as you originally suspected.

I think I have found the problem
 

Brian - the gap was at the bottom, positive camber.

On a whim before trying rrgrassi's test I checked tire pressure. it was about 24 psi on each tire. i hadnt touched it since owning the car since it has only been in the garage. but i thought this couldnt have that big of an effect.

inflated just the RR to 32 psi, started the car, backed it out of the garage and turned it around in the driveway to rest the suspension.

measured again, and now I have a gap of maybe an 1/8" at the bottom of the tire - very small amount of positive camber. the LR tire remained the same, .75" of positive camber. i bet once I get all of the tires at the correct and go for a drive the positive camber will be gone. hopefully this is the end of the 'problem'.

So, lesson learned: Inflate your tires before making any judgements about your independent suspension. I feel quite silly. Im surprised that a 20-25% tire pressure deficiency could cause over 2 degrees of camber. At lest I didnt take anything apart...

Thank you for all of the help, Ill update again when I inflate and go for a ride. Brian, thank you for stessing due troubleshooting process before tearing into my rear suspension, like I was sort of convinced I was going to need to do. I have learned a lot from this experience for a total cost of $0.

FWIW, this made a very small difference, I couldnt measure it. I got caught up in my other findings...


dd

My rear wheels are toed in like this \ /...
 

I thought I had solved the issue by putting the tires to the correct pressure, but I looked at it again now that I'm driving the car and both rear wheels still have roughly equal positive camber. The shocks, springs were recently put in by the idiot PO. So it must be one or the other. I will try removing the shocks this weekend.

Anybody follow this guide for rear spring removal by Mr. Hunter? Any comments on it? I probably need a little more detail to get through it.



Should I just buy Bilsteins and replace the shocks? I can tell they are not Bilsteins, some generic brand.

Any way to check springs while still in the car?

thanks,

dd

If you have that much camber, I doubt if it is the shocks. Gas charged shocks provide only a small amount of spring rate. It is more likely the springs are incorrect. It sounds like they are too stiff or too long. I am not aware of any defining marks on the springs that let you identify them. Land Rover use to mark their springs with different colored stripes to indicate the spring rate. I never heard of MB doing such a thing.

TimK

I used that from Whunter to do the springs on my W126 and it worked fine. Not too sure if it would be different for the W123 though. I don't think it would.

How many bumps on the spring shims?

Looks like its time to pop the springs out. Grrr.

What do you mean winmutt?

Popped out the shocks, two different types...they are both gabriel, but with different PNs and diefintely different amounts of force needed to press down.

Looks like Bilsteins are in my future.

I need to try and identify if my springs are original or correct...

dd

There are little rubber knobs on the spring pads (which are found where the spring meets the chassis) that you can see and/or feel by hand. Three knobs indicate a 19mm pad, IIRC, which is the thickest available.

There are 9.5, 14 and 19mm pads available. Click here for link to Phil's selection of pads.

Thanks Lux.

Ive got three nubs.

I think im going to just man up and remove the springs this afternoon. No sense beating around the bush. The shocks dont have enough power to resist the huge force of the springs thats cuasing the wheel to be tilted in.

My car had the the rear tires like that.
 

.
Hello Everyone

My 81 300D had the same thing going on with it's rear tires.
They were both tilted in at the bottom.
Or, had too much positive camber.

The problem was caused in my car by an improper front end alignment.
I thought the rear frame of the car had been bent in an accident or something.

But after the front end alignment the rear tires also returned to the correct alignment.

The front end alignment raised the front of the car some, which changed the balance point of the car and transfered more weight to the rear of the car.

I really did not think the front end alignment would effect the rear so much,
but it did.

Thanks
Still not right after all these pills !
RichC
.

Wow...what a revelation. Interesting for sure. I just went through the trouble of removing one of the springs - Ill post a pic in a bit.

Popped Out the springs
 

Took an hour to pop out the springs...not hard at all. I used the Wiki article whunter forwarded me to.

Well heres the pics (2nd post):

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/190857-w123-rear-spring-experts-need-some-help.html

Now to figure out if they are the right ones. They have the same number of turns as the pics on worldpac. The spring pads were 9.5mm, mercedes OE parts.

Now to figure what else to replace in the area while the patient is open. Subframe bushings for sure - theyre original.