Oh well i did not remove ip when i took the head off, i did rotate th engine when head was in the shop, before reassembly 1st piston was at tdc and marks on cam tower and cam was aligned , 100% that chain skipped when i was rotating engine without head ,it happened couple of times ., so again any tips on removing IP?
thanks

Very true, but, was piston at TDC after compression stroke or was piston at TDC after exhaust stroke?

The IP position would be the only thing that determines this answer, because the camshaft and crankshaft are proper with respect to each other.

Either the IP must go 180 degrees...........or the crankshaft must go 360 degrees with respect to the IP and camshaft..........or the camshaft must go 180 degrees.

Your choice.

This is exactly how I screwed up. #1 was at TDC, but it wasn't the "compression stroke" Cam lobes shoulda been a dead "give away":rolleyes:

You have three variables. I would bet that two of them--the crank and the ip--have not "skipped" teeth, and therefor, are in sync. Then the only other variable is the cam. One thing I've assumed is that the chain and the gear were not painted with a mark, otherwise, just line everything back up and you're good to go. But assuming we don't have those marks, I would just work on the cam sprocket timing. Also, I don't understand how you can correct 180 camshaft timing with removing the ip. Seems like you should just work on the thing that's broke. JMHO.

In theory, any one of the three "variables" could be adjusted to solve the problem. The original cause of the problem is not relevant.

Given the very real possibility that the IP might need to be reindexed anyway in order to adjust the timing, I would recommend removing the IP.

As you already explained. the crankshaft rotates at twice the rate of the camshaft. So they get back in sync every 360 degrees of crank rotation (or 180 degrees of camshaft rotation.)

So, if the camshaft remains fixed and the crankshaft rotates 360 degrees, the crank/cam relationship is unchanged. You have just moved ahead two cycles in the four cycle process. So you just need to move the IP ahead two strokes by rotating it 180 degrees to "catch up."

I guess that's my point. I'm not so sure the ip is going to need to be reindexed. That's why I'd work on the others first. But you are right, the origin of the problem isn't relevant. I would proceed with caution, especially if you're not certain the cam is in correct position.

I realize that pulling the IP on the 617 is allot more hassle than on my 616, but I got so fouled up that in the end I pulled and reset the IP at the 24 degree mark, rotated the crank to TDC (comp stroke), set the cam, rotated the engine by hand a couple times and timed the IP. (it was almost spot on) I would do it that way if there is any doubts about the crank, IP relationship.

It's not all that uncommon that the IP needs to be reindexed just to achieve the specified timing, absent any other work being done.

I think if the pump timing were that far off a new chain would be in order.

I'd agree, however, the IP usually has a "notch" that belongs in a certain position in the IP timer........does it not? While not mandatory to "follow the book", it's kinder to the mechanic who follows some time in the future.

It will be in the right place.

Think about it like this:
When the notch is in the "right" place in the current configuration, the #1 piston is coming up on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Remove the IP, turn the crank 360 degrees, then reinstall IP.
The notch doesn't move.

Alternatively, rotate the IP 180 degrees. The notch moves to the "right" place from being 180 degrees out. Essentially, nothing different than what one would do when installing a replacement IP.

I am a big proponent of following the book. If the book had been followed, we would not be having this discussion!!!

Well i ll start with cam, and see what will happen, if it wont help then its ip ,
,so cam will have to go back to last position ,shoud have it by tomorrow night.
Thanks everyone for help:)

Not having removed the IP, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Doesn't the IP have a notch that is aligned with a feature on the gear for the IP timer? There is a "proper" position of the IP with respect to the timer?

Presuming this to be the case, the IP is currently in the "proper" position and rotating it by 180 degrees will put it in an "improper" position.

If this were not the case, then the position of the notch would be irrelevant, which I don't believe to be true.

Getting the IP timing off and the valve timing off is not as hard as you think! First rotate the engine by hand until you see the crankcase "0" mark line up with the timing pointer with No.1 piston fully up. Thgen with the valve cover removed, check to see if the dimple in the camshaft gear is lined up with the edge of the steel on the drivers side of the head. Once you get there, remove the injection pump and make sure the timing marks face each other! You should be looking upwards toward the 10 or 11 O'clock position. Re-install the IP and do the drip test from there. Hope this helps. You would be wise to have a service manual with pictures!:D