Cold Morning Problems - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Rmcfarland · #61 12-07-2007, 02:27 AM

Well, here's the story. I installed the new starter this afternoon. I do think it cranks a little better than the other one (it should, it's the turbo version). But, the car still didn't start. I probably have quite a bit of diesel in there by now, with at least a dozen failed attempts.

Anyway, i put a little light under the oil pan, and throw an electric heater under the hood. I brought the battery inside and charged it, did all this for about 3 hours. Tried again. It spun a little faster maybe, not enough though. Still no start.

So, I let it rest for an hour or so, battery outside but on the charger. I come back out and jump it to a running car, let it sit there hooked up for 5-10 minutes, and then glow. And glow. for about 3 minutes. Then, I try to crank it up. It FINALLY lit! YAY! A small sucess in a world of failure! So, I drove it around for a good long while to get everything hot and clean out diesel in the oil, etc.

So, here's my question. What do you think is wrong? This shouldn't have been that hard. I am questioning these things right now, what do you all think?

1.) Valves. These need to be adjusted, I'm sure. I will try and tackle these this weekend.

2.) Battery. Should my 700CCA Interstate Group 48 (not the bigger 49) be at question here? It DID need that jump to get going, and this bad boy has been on the charger for at least 48 hours now. It is less than 2 years old though.

3.) Glow Plug Reaming. This might be worth checking out, but I don't have the reamer. I have read the threads on drill bits, screwdrivers, etc. But havent' come up with the answer on what is an acceptable (safe!) method. I don't have the cash for the $100 reamer.

Thoughts? Thanks all for your help so far, this will be a sucess eventually!

Brian Carlton · #62 12-07-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmcfarland

1.) Valves. These need to be adjusted, I'm sure. I will try and tackle these this weekend.

2.) Battery. Should my 700CCA Interstate Group 48 (not the bigger 49) be at question here? It DID need that jump to get going, and this bad boy has been on the charger for at least 48 hours now. It is less than 2 years old though.

3.) Glow Plug Reaming. This might be worth checking out, but I don't have the reamer. I have read the threads on drill bits, screwdrivers, etc. But havent' come up with the answer on what is an acceptable (safe!) method. I don't have the cash for the $100 reamer.

Thoughts? Thanks all for your help so far, this will be a sucess eventually!

Unfortunately, you don't have a "smoking gun" anymore. As Jim mentioned in his second post, a group of marginal issues can also prevent a start.

In your situation, the slightly slower cranking speed is affecting your results, however, changing the battery is not going to provide a magical solution.

If the valves have not been adjusted in 25K or more, that's the very first thing that I would do. In cold temperatures, the intake valves can begin to hang open (they only have .004" clearance per the specification) and the cylinder compression will start to fall slightly. This is noticeable at cold temperatures and disappears at higher temperatures.

If you've got good compression, working glow plugs, an acceptable battery, the valve lash is the next thing to check and adjust.

BTW, I presume that you've got synthetic oil in the engine.........correct??

Rmcfarland · #63 12-07-2007, 02:49 PM

er........ No, I have 15w40 rotella in the engine. Going to switch, but at ~25F that shouldn't be critical, should it?

I will adjust the valves. I need to run out and get another 14mm wrench. I will do that this weekend and report back. Maybe my battery is OK, I will leave it be for the time being, I guess.

How about reaming out GP holes? A forum member kindly offered to loan me the reamer, so I will try that.

running-snail · #64 12-07-2007, 08:32 PM

Glow plug reamer can't hurt -

I run Rotella T synthetic 5w-40 year round in mine - after sitting in the driveway for two weeks (had to heat the key to melt the ice in the lock tumbler to get in) I glowed for 30 seconds and it cranked right up this morning - low 20's.

Every car is different buy 15w40 isn't helping - get that changed. WalMart has gallons of Rotella synthetic at a good price.

Brian Carlton · #65 12-07-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmcfarland

er........ No, I have 15w40 rotella in the engine. Going to switch, but at ~25F that shouldn't be critical, should it?

I will adjust the valves. I need to run out and get another 14mm wrench. I will do that this weekend and report back. Maybe my battery is OK, I will leave it be for the time being, I guess.

How about reaming out GP holes? A forum member kindly offered to loan me the reamer, so I will try that.

Take some of your Rotella 15W40 and leave it outside in 25°F. weather overnight. Then try and pour it. Think whether it's going to affect your crank speed...............

Maybe it's barely acceptable..........if everything else is good.

Don't waste your time..........that's not preventing the engine from starting.

captainmonk · #66 12-08-2007, 03:19 AM

crank speed of the starter is ultimate test to me
my mercedes isnt ever plugged in started yesterday @17 degees
with dino oil good glow plugs and the right size battery
but brian is right lots of lil things add up to a big pain in da as...

Rmcfarland · #67 12-09-2007, 02:05 PM

Alright, last night I adjusted the valves. This was my first experience with doing this. Engine had not run for at least 15 hours and it was about 25F outside. I found all 4 intake valves to be too tight, and adjusted them to the proper .10mm. Three of the exhaust valves were tight, one was ok. Adjusted to .30mm, except two of them. I could not stop the big bottom spring nut from turning (didn't have the proper tool) and so I left them. They were at .25mm on a rather cold engine, so I deemed them OK.

Anyway, I took the car for a drive afterward. Starting wasn't a good test since I had pushed it into the warm garage for the valve adjust. Seemed to idle smoother with less pinging. No noticable other differences. Maybe a little quieter?

Also, I did the adjust with straight wrenches. It can be done, but I bet the bent ones are much easier. I was out there for a while.

Didn't try to start it this morning. Its very cold out here, about 18F at 9AM this morning. I will post again when I try to start.

I really just need to go buy a block heater at sub 15F, I thinks. I will put Rotella 5w40 Syn in at my next oil change (soon) as well, just waiting for a good day to do it. I want to change out the filter housing gasket and pan gasket, so I need to set aside a bit of time.

Rmcfarland · #68 12-09-2007, 02:18 PM

Quick update - I just went out to try and start the car. 18F out right now (holy crap!) Starter sounded like it was laughing at me. Definitely no go, hit a few times on one cylinder, kind of.

Will most 616 or 617's start at 18F with dino 15W40 in the crankcase?

How much will that synth oil help? I don't have much else to try fixing.

Brian Carlton · #69 12-09-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmcfarland

Quick update - I just went out to try and start the car. 18F out right now (holy crap!) Starter sounded like it was laughing at me. Definitely no go, hit a few times on one cylinder, kind of.

Will most 616 or 617's start at 18F with dino 15W40 in the crankcase?

How much will that synth oil help? I don't have much else to try fixing.

If the battery is marginal and the engine has dino oil in it, and you don't use a block heater, the odds of starting at 18F. are minimal.

Change the battery and put synthetic oil in it and it will start.............or, plug it in every night below 25F............your choice.

mobetta · #70 12-09-2007, 05:07 PM

my TD started just fine last winter w/ no block heater, rotella 15-40, 280k miles, down to about 7 degrees f. then no go, switched to mobil1 0-40, and she started the rest of the winter fine. except when I had gloplug issues. 10-15 below was the coldest I had to try. also had a 3 yr old napa battery, which has been replaced.

no block heater then, just finally installed one this week.

I do adjust the valves in the fall, and valve timing is right on, using the dial indicator method.

using rotella 5-40 now, no start yesterday(-3*F) with 2 GP's out again. replaced them. should be fine the rest of the winter.

so, if the engine is in good overall condition, IMHO, it should start just fine w/ dino oil well below 25*. but there are a lot of variables which can affect this.

burntcloth · #71 12-09-2007, 06:08 PM

Well, I've got my own cold start problem today, too.
I was so darn excited that I was driving through Denver when the Biodiesel co-op was going to be open, that I filled her up with B100. Then it got real cold. Oops.

"But," I thought, "I've done a recent valve adjustment, and I'll plug it in with the engine block heater."

This morning, She started up great. Made it a hundred feet, then she coughed to a stop. All day, had the engine block heater on and the battery charger runnning on her. Temperatures 25-30 F. Never got her to start again. Getting the glow plugs good and cycled hot, but just cranks and cranks, and sputters.

Can a diesel engine get "flooded"?
Besides waiting for a warm day (there's no garage to move into) and changing out my glow plugs next chance I get, what can I do? Try to heat up the fuel tank? Any idears?

toomany MBZ · #72 12-09-2007, 06:23 PM

Fuel is your only variable? That's where I would start.
Good luck.

barry123400 · #73 12-09-2007, 07:19 PM

One thing though.... the engine sounded......different, cranking this morning. Maybe a faster crank? Anybody else do this job and notice the same thing?[/QUOTE]
Possibly a couple of cylinders were partially firing to aid the engine spinning a little easier? New glow plug effect as you did not change anything else?

uranian · #74 12-10-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimSmith

We should probably work up a "Sticky" for the check list on this subject. Most of the issues are already noted above. But the main things are:

Battery, battery terminal/ground connections and charging system. Diesels are tough on batteries. Have the battery checked for taking and holding a charge. Hot, humid summers and aging corrosion resistant coatings make for higher resistance connections. Means potential for real voltage drops at the connections, which leads to heating, which leads to even higher resistance. Check the connections by disassembling and wire brushing each contact surface and threads, then put them back together greased with a good assembly grease. Also, make sure the charging system is fully functional - more than 13.6 V with the blower on and the high beams on, at idle.

The oil. I recommend Mobil Delvac 1 all year round, but especially in the winter. My 1975 240D spent 1976 and 1977 in Anchorage, Alaska. Mobil 1 just came out back then, and it was a life saving product for cold winter starts. I "was converted" and have never used dino oils since. When all of Mother Nature's forces are against getting your Diesel to start, leaving an oil in the crankcase that demands another 5% of the starter is going to make the likelihood of success lower. And, since most of us on this site are aware of the need to change oil frequently, we do. The added cost of a good 5W-40 Diesel rated synthetic oil is trivial compared to the trouble of not starting in cold weather at the mall or at work or at home.

Glow plugs. Healthy glow plugs draw current from the battery that is then not available for running the starter so multiple glow cycles are not always welcome - make sure the plugs and controls are in good working order and your battery is strong before doing a multiple glow or longer glow cycle. Unhealthy glow plugs (higher resistance) draw current but never get hot enough to do their job, or, burned out ones just don't work at all. This is another "system" check, involving the fuse, the connections to the glow plugs, and the type of glow plugs. Early models had really poor performance "loop" style plugs, and a similar filament on the dash that drew enough current to actually glow. Bad system, and it was replaced by the newer, parallel glow plugs of the pencil design, that have no visible loop. From all accounts the old style plugs and controls and wiring should be trashed and replaced by the newer systems. I never did this on my old cars, but in retrospect I probably should have. In any case diagnostic testing of the newer, parallel pencil type plugs is much easier than the old, series connected, loop type plugs. In any event, good plugs are a prerequisite to a cold start.

Starter. Check connections and then, if the battery and charging system are sound, the battery connections clean, the oil a decent synthetic selected for winter starts, and the engine is turning over too slowly to start, you may have a bad starter. They get abused in the winter months, and have to work harder in a Diesel anyway. So they fail. Don't be shocked. Also, don't buy rebuilds from random rebuild houses. Rebuilding an electric motor, or alternator, is typically limited to replacing mechanical stuff, and brushes if they are part of the package. Winding checks, at operating temperature, are rare, and rewinds are even harder to find. At most some places will clean the windings with solvents and then dry them and "dip" them to recover the old insulation with a new coat of varnish. This is typically temporary at best. The added varnish keeps heat in and leads to thermal degradation, and the dip is only effective at repairing an insulation weakness if by dipping the starter the defect is covered. Poor starter performance shows up as slower engine rotation and cannot be tolerated in the cold. As the piston compresses the air charge in the cylinder, the air heats up. With a warm engine the air temperature reaches the combustion temperature needed for the Diesel fuel injected. In a cold engine the air around the injection point in our prechamber equipped models is heated by the glow plugs and the added heat of compression makes the temperature high enough to support combustion of the fuel as it is injected. If the engine turns too slowly, the heat of compression is absorbed by the freezing cold block as quickly as it is made and the glow plug turns out to be unable to do the job alone. So, you get a response that could be mistaken or confused with bad glow plugs.

General condition of the engine parts that generate compression, meaning valves and rings/cylinder interfaces and timing. If the valves are closing at the wrong time, you may be pumping a portion of the air on the compression stroke out the intake or the exhaust. So you end up with the wrong volume at the start of the compression stroke, and the wrong final pressure and temperature. This issue is typically a valve lash adjustment and an examination of the timing chain/possible change, away from being fixed. Once you go this far, check injection timing too, and if you have reason to suspect the condition of the injectors, check them as well. Bad injection timing or injectors just means another strike against you when the weather chips are down which is when you can typically least tolerate not starting. These issues, other than valve adjustments are not yearly expenses. They are a once in several tens of thousands of miles needs on an otherwise reasonably well maintained car.

If the valves are leaking, or the ring to cylinder seal is leaking, especially with a weak starter or battery, you end up leaking away too much of the compression stroke to generate enough heat to get a temperature high enough to support igniting the Diesel fuel. The fix here is more involved and costly.

With everything nominal, these cars start reliably in zero degree weather and below without block heaters. It is, after all, cold in Germany in the winter. Munich is at the same latitude as Montreal, as I recall. And, once everything is nominal, keeping it that way is not going to cost an arm and leg. These cars were famous for being taxi cabs in Munich, and the taxicab drivers owned their own cars back in the 1960s and 1970s. So, they were a frugal group of stead MB Diesel customers. Good luck, Jim

Most excellent thread, thanks for the FAQ there Jim. And hello forum

My own experience here is with a 1969 406D who is currently generally (75% of the time) refusing to start, even in the warm. Bump start works fine, we generate a big cloud of white smoke, then off we go, no problems even if the engine has had a few hours to cool off again when it comes to re-starting, to I´m assuming that the problem is condensation and glow plugs. Not that I know anything about engines, this MB is my first vehicle, but a friend who does suggested this. Reading here, I will try a thinner oil (which means lower numbers on the XXw-XX type code, if I´m not mistaken), and cycling the glow plugs - presuming this means pre-heating a couple of times before actually trying to start. We have 2 big batteries on the van, as it´s a motorhome (1 intended for the engine, 1 for the van, but both are in fact connected to the engine), so I don´t think that´s the problem.

zeet · #75 12-10-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burntcloth

Well, I've got my own cold start problem today, too.
I was so darn excited that I was driving through Denver when the Biodiesel co-op was going to be open, that I filled her up with B100. Then it got real cold. Oops.

"But," I thought, "I've done a recent valve adjustment, and I'll plug it in with the engine block heater."

This morning, She started up great. Made it a hundred feet, then she coughed to a stop. All day, had the engine block heater on and the battery charger runnning on her. Temperatures 25-30 F. Never got her to start again. Getting the glow plugs good and cycled hot, but just cranks and cranks, and sputters.

Can a diesel engine get "flooded"?
Besides waiting for a warm day (there's no garage to move into) and changing out my glow plugs next chance I get, what can I do? Try to heat up the fuel tank? Any idears?

Last time I fueled up with B99 this winter, I brought a little canning jar. Filled it at the same time and put it in the fridge when I got home ... so now I know at 35F that it turns solid. Take the jar out and bingo, it's back to liquid in a minute or two. So without further study, I'd suggest that this B99 solidifies at 36-38F. This is made from virgin soy. So the answer? I'm running B50 for the winter until the average temperatures get up into the high 30s. If you've got a tank of solid fuel, you'll see exactly the symptoms you just described - it goes until the pump and filter are empty, then it stalls. Here, the local indy pulls them into the shop and puts a space heater under the tank when that happens, then uses an electric heat gun on the fuel lines, and after getting them fired up, puts D2 or kero in until it's full.

Good luck!