Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 12-18-2007, 12:32 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 18,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmcfarland View Post
I prime my stupid old leaky primer pump
That could be your problem.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 12-18-2007, 12:53 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Posts: 3,598
Well, no fuel, no start. Leaking air into the system means lots of cranking to displace the air. The starter turning the engine over is the most inefficient fuel pump you can imagine. Thus the hand pump.

Check all the jumper hoses between injectors, the lines bringing fuel from the tank (there is a short, fat hose from the hard line from the tank that can get old and crack, and weep fuel/leak air), and your hand pump. Also check back at the rear of the car from the fuel tank, where there are a few other rubber lines subject to aging cracks.

The injection pump is a positive displacement pump. If you get air in it, it basically stops working correctly as it cannot generate the pressure needed to pop the injectors. The hand pump, while also not the most effective pump, is the designated device to clear the system of air. It is a piece of junk and has to be reasonably tightly screwed down. If it leaks fuel out, is will also allow air in. Not good.

There is an aftermarket hand pump that is less prone to leaking if yours is really the source of the problem. But be thorough when you inspect the vehicle. Until you get the system air/fuel tight, you will have difficulty as the starter is going to be worn out along with the battery performing this air purging task every time you start.

As for temperature contributing to the problem, the system is made of a bunch of dissimilar materials and they all have different expansion rates. The rubber O-rings in some places can handle this fine until they become aged and stiff. Cold O-rings are characteristically stiffer than warm ones.

So, make sure everything is sealed up. Sounds like you have done everything else. Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 12-18-2007, 04:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmcfarland View Post
Quick update - I just went out to try and start the car. 18F out right now (holy crap!) Starter sounded like it was laughing at me. Definitely no go, hit a few times on one cylinder, kind of.

Will most 616 or 617's start at 18F with dino 15W40 in the crankcase?

How much will that synth oil help? I don't have much else to try fixing.
5W40 will help immensely. As metioned above, at 15-20*F with 15w40 my 300SD with 158k miles wouldn't start without the block heater being plugged in for a few hours. 5W40 and today with 192+k it started on the first try at 5*F with NO block heater use.

Install a block heater or coolant line heater and get your primer fixed. You can get a primer pump off ebay pretty cheaply. You can probably get either the block or water heater for less than $50 at any auto parts store, even Auto Zomby or De-vance Auto.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 12-28-2007, 01:56 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 163
Just thought I would update - been busy over christmas so I haven't been around. But:

I changed out my oil (needed anyway) to Rotella 5w40 synthetic. Also, I zip-tied the clear primary fuel filter on end so all the fuel in it would go to the bottom, where it is sucked out from. I have had NO starting problems since. Fires right up now even after a cold night. I am so glad that my old car is behaving.

That 5w40 seems to help quite a bit on cranking speed. I would recommend it to anybody running 15w40 below 30 degrees farenheit.

One last question: the car runs kinda rough after starting, misses quite a bit, as though one or more cylinders don't quite want to go. This continues for a minute or two, or until I start driving a bit. A decent amount of white/grey smoke comes out the tailpipe until it's running smooth too. Once up to temp, no smoke at all. Revving the engine seems to help but I hate to rev it very high at all when it's still so cold. Is this an injector issue?

Thanks to everyone for helping me out. This forum has saved me more time and money than anything else. I sure hope it keeps firing this well as it gets colder!
__________________
'79 240D 4 speed manual 105k miles
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 12-28-2007, 02:41 AM
TylerH860's Avatar
KHAAAAAAN-gress
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wichita, Ks
Posts: 5,187
Sounds like a cranky old girl.
__________________
1985 500SL Euro w/ AMG bits 130k
1984 300SD Turbodiesel 192k
1980 240D Stick China 188k
2001 CLK55 AMG 101k
2007 S600 Biturbo 149k Overheated Project, IT'S ALIVE!!!
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 12-28-2007, 09:17 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmcfarland View Post
One last question: the car runs kinda rough after starting, misses quite a bit, as though one or more cylinders don't quite want to go. This continues for a minute or two, or until I start driving a bit. A decent amount of white/grey smoke comes out the tailpipe until it's running smooth too. Once up to temp, no smoke at all. Revving the engine seems to help but I hate to rev it very high at all when it's still so cold. Is this an injector issue?
How long do you glow the plugs prior to starting?
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 12-28-2007, 09:25 AM
oldnavy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SwampEast MO
Posts: 1,695
That's a glow plug problem. Wife's car is doing same thing and it is a GP problem and I will be having them replaced hopefuly first weekend after New Years.

She glows it twice in afternoons if it is in the 40's out, if in the 50's you wouldn't notice the problem. It always starts easy, but will have the shakes bad in 30 dregee weather for about 20 to 30 seconds.
__________________
'10 Chrysler T&C Stow-N-Go White. Grandpa's ride.

'13 Chrysler 200 Touring Candy Red. Grandma's ride.

Age and cunning will always over come youth and vigor.

Last edited by oldnavy; 12-28-2007 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Add a comment
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 12-28-2007, 01:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 163
To all who asked: I let it glow for one glow cycle - But this is with the old wiring from the loop style plugs running newer pencil style plugs. So anywhere from about 45 seconds to 90 seconds when it is cold out.

This would seem to be more than long enough to me, from what I have seen here on the forum. Do I need more time?

Keep in mind: car is starting fine now. I am not having to lay on the starter for more than a few seconds before it is running. Just runs rough and smokes for a minute or two.

Afterglow setup of some sort would probably help, no?
__________________
'79 240D 4 speed manual 105k miles
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 12-28-2007, 01:25 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmcfarland View Post
To all who asked: I let it glow for one glow cycle - But this is with the old wiring from the loop style plugs running newer pencil style plugs. So anywhere from about 45 seconds to 90 seconds when it is cold out.

This would seem to be more than long enough to me, from what I have seen here on the forum. Do I need more time?

Keep in mind: car is starting fine now. I am not having to lay on the starter for more than a few seconds before it is running. Just runs rough and smokes for a minute or two.

Afterglow setup of some sort would probably help, no?
I'd revisit the glow plugs again. After a 45 second glow, it should start nearly perfectly smooth if the plugs are working properly.

Check to ensure that you've got voltage at each of the four plugs.

Check the resistance of each plug.

Something doesn't sound right..............
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 01-11-2008, 09:56 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by uranian View Post
Most excellent thread, thanks for the FAQ there Jim. And hello forum

My own experience here is with a 1969 406D who is currently generally (75% of the time) refusing to start, even in the warm. Bump start works fine, we generate a big cloud of white smoke, then off we go, no problems even if the engine has had a few hours to cool off again when it comes to re-starting, to Iīm assuming that the problem is condensation and glow plugs. Not that I know anything about engines, this MB is my first vehicle, but a friend who does suggested this. Reading here, I will try a thinner oil (which means lower numbers on the XXw-XX type code, if Iīm not mistaken), and cycling the glow plugs - presuming this means pre-heating a couple of times before actually trying to start. We have 2 big batteries on the van, as itīs a motorhome (1 intended for the engine, 1 for the van, but both are in fact connected to the engine), so I donīt think thatīs the problem.
I've replaced the oil with 5W40, from 15W40 previously, and for a week, the engine started fine. Great, I thought, problem solved! But within the last few days, I'm having trouble again...now it sounds as though the battery is dying, as the engine will crank when I start it, but rather slowly and swiftly dropping off to nothing (like within 5 to 10 seconds). The battery is fine, I tested it and it's at 12.3V and holding a charge, so now I'm stumped. I do have the old style loop glow plugs mentioned by Jim, but they seem to be working...I'm told they're wired in series, so if one is dead, none would work (did the very simple test of seeing whether I could burn my finger on all 4 plugs, which I can!), and I'm still finding that if I get the van started (generally bump start it down a hill), I can leave the engine off for many hours, come back to it and it'll start fine. It just seems to be after leaving it overnight that it doesn't want to start. This is happening in above-freezing temperatures...typical daytime temp here is around 10 degrees C.

Guess my next check is the alternator, though the fact that the battery is charged suggests it's working OK...I'm wondering if it's the starter motor that has just died, as the electrical system seems to be fine. But then again, the fact that the van will start fine if I manage to get it started and then leave it off for hours confuses me.

Any suggestions as to checks, other than the alternator? I don't understand why I have trouble initially, but can bump start it, then leave the engine off for many hours so it's stone cold again, then it will start every time without trouble.

TIA
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:29 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by uranian View Post
The battery is fine, I tested it and it's at 12.3V and holding a charge, so now I'm stumped.
Your test is not valid for the battery. Many old batteries will show specified voltage under no load, but, when 400 amps is demanded, the voltage drops off a cliff.

If the battery is more than four years old.........just replace it. If the battery is less than four years old.........bring it to a facility that can properly place it under a load and test it for you.

Note, however, that these symptoms are identical to cabling issues..........corrosion at the battery..........the starter..........or at the engine ground cable where it connects to the body.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:42 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
If the battery is more than four years old.........just replace it. If the battery is less than four years old.........bring it to a facility that can properly place it under a load and test it for you.
Thanks for the quick response. The battery is around 6 months old. I was told by the salesperson that it's built by Bosch then rebranded (bought in Poland). I do have another battery in the vehicle (intended to power the lights of the motorhome, was at 11V earlier today, is that unreasonably low if it is connected to the alternator properly?), so I will swap them around and see if that one works any better. Will also check what the alternator is giving out, as from reading earlier threads, that should be generating approaching 14V.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 01-11-2008, 11:00 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by uranian View Post
The battery is around 6 months old.
Check battery terminals.

Check cabling.

Check battery voltage with engine at 2000 rpm with high current draw (headlignts, blower, etc.). See if you get 14V.

Connect second battery in parallel with first battery (use very good jumper cables). See if problem disappears.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 01-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 28
Smile

thankyou, i will do all those things. didnīt know that the battery should produce 14v, so thatīs useful to know. iīve been reading the battery faq online and been surprised by how tenths of a volt reflect differences in the batteryīs charge.

other relevant info to this is that the fanbelt is slipping at medium and higher speeds, so i wonder if the alternator isnīt charging the battery properly. i have bought replacement fan belts, will install 1 within the next few days and see how we go.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 01-11-2008, 03:13 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by uranian View Post
thankyou, i will do all those things. didnīt know that the battery should produce 14v, so thatīs useful to know. iīve been reading the battery faq online and been surprised by how tenths of a volt reflect differences in the batteryīs charge.

other relevant info to this is that the fanbelt is slipping at medium and higher speeds, so i wonder if the alternator isnīt charging the battery properly. i have bought replacement fan belts, will install 1 within the next few days and see how we go.
The battery can't produce 14V. The charging system will raise the system to 14V when it sees a heavy load.........especially when the battery is not fully charged.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page