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  #1  
Old 03-16-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
The 617 pumps can fail. ON mine it did make noise and the vac system stopped working too before the pump came apart with catastrophic results. I heard the noise but when I took it to the dealer to hear it of course it miraculously healed itself. I knew something was up but had no clue such a catastrophic result was possible. The system went into comlete melt down on a trip to st louis halfway home and I was about 30 miles form home when it crapped.

That was fifteen years ago or more long before this excellent resource existed.

Tom W
Can you please describe "catastrophic?" The condition of my VP seems OK, but I don't know if it's ever been rebuilt or replaced. Perhaps that should be added to my todo list. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2008, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by GRIESL View Post
Can you please describe "catastrophic?" The condition of my VP seems OK, but I don't know if it's ever been rebuilt or replaced. Perhaps that should be added to my todo list. Thanks.
Boy I had forgotten that I even started this thread. I started the thread as I had read quite a few threads on how the Vacuum Pump had failed and pieces of it fell into the timing chain area and caused the timing chain to fail (even break, the catastrophic part). One of the members Stevo believed the Vacuum Pump failure was caused in his case by the IP pump Timer (this is the unit that drives the IP and advances the timing on the IP). He said his had too much end play (moved back and fourth too much).
Because of all of this I decided to pull off my Vacuum Pump and take a look. After removal a visual inspection I could not see any thing that looked like it was badly worn or ready to fall apart and I put it back on. (I was inspection the arm, linkage and roller that drives the vacuum pump piston; this is the part that is inside the engine.)
If something goes wrong on the other end of the pump the part with the valves in it the pump will just stop producing vacuum and you will loose your power brakes and will not be able to shutoff the engine (you will have to open the hood and push the manual shutoff by the valve cover).
The pump is not hard to get off; I did have to loosen the Power Steering Pump and remove the belt from the Power Steering Pulley in order to get the V Pump off.
I will PM you some additional information.
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  #3  
Old 03-16-2008, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Boy I had forgotten that I even started this thread. I started the thread as I had read quite a few threads on how the Vacuum Pump had failed and pieces of it fell into the timing chain area and caused the timing chain to fail (even break, the catastrophic part). One of the members Stevo believed the Vacuum Pump failure was caused in his case by the IP pump Timer (this is the unit that drives the IP and advances the timing on the IP). He said his had too much end play (moved back and fourth too much).
Because of all of this I decided to pull off my Vacuum Pump and take a look. After removal a visual inspection I could not see any thing that looked like it was badly worn or ready to fall apart and I put it back on. (I was inspection the arm, linkage and roller that drives the vacuum pump piston; this is the part that is inside the engine.)
If something goes wrong on the other end of the pump the part with the valves in it the pump will just stop producing vacuum and you will loose your power brakes and will not be able to shutoff the engine (you will have to open the hood and push the manual shutoff by the valve cover).
The pump is not hard to get off; I did have to loosen the Power Steering Pump and remove the belt from the Power Steering Pulley in order to get the V Pump off.
I will PM you some additional information.
Another member "Craig" also had his VP fail due too way too much end play in the timing device. (with catastrophic results). I had my engine out and on the stand but pulling that timing device to get to the brass bushing would be a PIA with the engine in the car, The T chain doesn't want to let it go.
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  #4  
Old 03-16-2008, 11:45 AM
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I don't really know what caused my failure but I suppose the bearings failed and the pump continued to work with the parts simply rubbing on each other until one wore in half.

Then that part fell into the cam chain and broke the cam chain and the pistons collided with the stationary open valves pushing them up breaking the cam and cam towers.

Then fixing just the broken stuff was going to be a couple of grand and doing the whole motor was only another three or so so I did that too.

If it happened today with what I know about the bottom end of a benz motor I would not do the bottom end, just a valve job and repair the damage and lite it off!

Tom W
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  #5  
Old 03-16-2008, 11:54 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
Another member "Craig" also had his VP fail due too way too much end play in the timing device. (with catastrophic results). I had my engine out and on the stand but pulling that timing device to get to the brass bushing would be a PIA with the engine in the car, The T chain doesn't want to let it go.
I don't know if the end play actually caused the pump failure, but there was too much end play and the bushing was well worn. My indy replaced it in the car, a giant PITA from what I saw. To get the timing chain out of the way you have to move the cain guide, which requires removing a VERY tight pin that is pressed into the block. My indy spent the better part of two days working on mine.
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  #6  
Old 03-16-2008, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig View Post
I don't know if the end play actually caused the pump failure, but there was too much end play and the bushing was well worn. My indy replaced it in the car, a giant PITA from what I saw. To get the timing chain out of the way you have to move the cain guide, which requires removing a VERY tight pin that is pressed into the block. My indy spent the better part of two days working on mine.
I had to remove the timing device on an engine I had just rebuilt because if forgot to replace the main oil gallery end plug , plug was in back of the T/D The "pin" was easy, getting the T/D out with the chain around it, another matter, I stuck a bunch of screw drivers and other "pointy' tools in there to hold the chain away, not fun
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2008, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
I had to remove the timing device on an engine I had just rebuilt because if forgot to replace the main oil gallery end plug , plug was in back of the T/D The "pin" was easy, getting the T/D out with the chain around it, another matter, I stuck a bunch of screw drivers and other "pointy' tools in there to hold the chain away, not fun
I took a look at the Manual to see what they used; they showed a whole bunch of screwdrives wedged under the timing chain just like you did.
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  #8  
Old 03-20-2008, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I took a look at the Manual to see what they used; they showed a whole bunch of screwdrives wedged under the timing chain just like you did.
Oh yah, in Haynes, they also show that "bushing" that wares out in back of the timing device.
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2008, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
I don't know if the end play actually caused the pump failure, but there was too much end play and the bushing was well worn. My indy replaced it in the car, a giant PITA from what I saw. To get the timing chain out of the way you have to move the cain guide, which requires removing a VERY tight pin that is pressed into the block. My indy spent the better part of two days working on mine.
How many miles were on the engine when you found out that the Timer bushing was worn out?
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  #10  
Old 03-16-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
Another member "Craig" also had his VP fail due too way too much end play in the timing device. (with catastrophic results). I had my engine out and on the stand but pulling that timing device to get to the brass bushing would be a PIA with the engine in the car, The T chain doesn't want to let it go.
How many miles were on the engine when you found that the Timer bushing was worn out?
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  #11  
Old 03-16-2008, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
How many miles were on the engine when you found that the Timer bushing was worn out?
As I recall it was about 380 - 390K. I do remember it was before I turned over 400K. It sounded just like a bad vacuum pump, but the sound didn't go away when the pump was replaced. The sprocket behind the IP/vacuum pump was banging around too much, it's only supposed to have about 1 mm of axially movement.
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  #12  
Old 03-16-2008, 07:53 PM
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So it was just worn out, at almost 400k miles it had a lot of time on it.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2008, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
So it was just worn out, at almost 400k miles it had a lot of time on it.
I ask him the mileage he had on the vehicle when he discovered it was worn out. It is going on my list of things to check as I put more miles on my vehicle. Right not I am approaching 200,000 miles. After about 250,000 miles it looks like it is time to see what type of play is in the timer bushing.

I can also see a possible situation developing here. At around 300,000 the timing chain is stretched. The person changes the chain not thinking to check the Fuel Injection Pump Timer Bushing clearance. Some time down the road the Timer Bushing becomes worn and the Timer takes out Vacuum Pump and pieces of Vacuum Pump take out the new timing chain and possibly damaging other parts of the engine.
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2015, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Boy I had forgotten that I even started this thread. I started the thread as I had read quite a few threads on how the Vacuum Pump had failed and pieces of it fell into the timing chain area and caused the timing chain to fail (even break, the catastrophic part). One of the members Stevo believed the Vacuum Pump failure was caused in his case by the IP pump Timer (this is the unit that drives the IP and advances the timing on the IP). He said his had too much end play (moved back and fourth too much).
Because of all of this I decided to pull off my Vacuum Pump and take a look. After removal a visual inspection I could not see any thing that looked like it was badly worn or ready to fall apart and I put it back on. (I was inspection the arm, linkage and roller that drives the vacuum pump piston; this is the part that is inside the engine.)
If something goes wrong on the other end of the pump the part with the valves in it the pump will just stop producing vacuum and you will loose your power brakes and will not be able to shutoff the engine (you will have to open the hood and push the manual shutoff by the valve cover).
The pump is not hard to get off; I did have to loosen the Power Steering Pump and remove the belt from the Power Steering Pulley in order to get the V Pump off.
I will PM you some additional information.
OK, this is my issue, no vacuum, no breaks, no shut off.

Do I want a used one or rebuild my 294K pump? I don't really need a pump that will last another 30+ years, do I? What if I rebuild it & I mess it up?
What are your experiences?

Thanks,
Dave
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  #15  
Old 03-29-2015, 11:31 PM
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Answer

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Originally Posted by MB300Dave View Post
OK, this is my issue, no vacuum, no breaks, no shut off.

Do I want a used one or rebuild my 294K pump? I don't really need a pump that will last another 30+ years, do I? What if I rebuild it & I mess it up?
What are your experiences?

Thanks,
Dave
I would open it up, verify there is no damage, then rebuild.
As you will see from the following threads, it is not a difficult job.

Vacuum Pump Rebuild Thread

.
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