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  #1  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:37 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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High tech injection system for the 616, 617

I have been pondering the idea of a kit to convert the old diesels we love to a high tech injection system such as is used on a modern diesel. I am wondering if it is feasible to come up with a system that bolts into the hole our mechanical injectors use and so forth.

Imagine, a 45 mpg 240d with more power and less smoke and noise.

Tom W
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2008, 07:55 PM
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we discussed this over at schumans.... its a pipe dream with a massive price tag
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  #3  
Old 01-13-2008, 08:49 PM
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In the past you had a good chance of finding out what was wrong with your (gas) car. Now so much electronic stuff has been added it is difficult to trouble shoot them with out special analyzers or taking it to someone to trouble shoot.
While it is true that mechnical fuel injection systems are expensive when they need to be fixed; if the system is kept clean they are not troublesome and there are proceedures you can follow to find out what might be wrong.
In an envornment of heat and vibration electronic components do not hold up as well as mechanical ones. Not to mention it will take special testers to check out these type of systems. As an example of cost I just looked on Ebay one Ford Powerstroke diesel injector is $99-$139 each; an injector drive module $159-$249 and so on.
I would rather put up with my old fuel injection system then have one that I cannot trouble shoot without buying alot of expensive testers or afford to repair.
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Last edited by Diesel911; 01-13-2008 at 11:16 PM.
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  #4  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:05 PM
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This is one of those "do it because you can" projects.


If you want a CDI 240D, which would be a what? E240CDI? Its possible...

1. Get a nice 240D with a blown engine, that shouldn't be that hard to do.
2. Find, somehow, a 4 cylinder MB CDI engine, with all the computers that are needed to make it run. You will probably also need transmission.

3. Place CDI engine in the 240D, which is the simple part. Now hook up the computers and get it to work.

M120 into 560SL (With Pictures!)

While a different engine and car, thats about what you are going to have to do.
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  #5  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:17 PM
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Let's see. You can buy a high pressure belt-driven CP3 pump for around $3000. It'll come with some soft and hard lines, and you can probably make or have fabricated your own common rail for a few hundred dollars. After that it starts getting expensive. I don't think there are any common-rail injectors that will fit the OM616/617 head, so you could either modify (most likely design and build a completely new one) head that takes an available injector, or design and build your own injectors to fit the head. I'm thinking a new-from-scratch head would be cheaper and easier. If you're good with design and have previous experience in internal combustion cylinder head design, you could probably come up with a working design in a month or two, less if you bang away at it full time.

Then you have to get someone to manufacture the head for you, unless you have a sufficiently good home shop to do it. With CNC, this is a lot less expensive for a one-off than things used to be, but I'd still expect to pay over ten grand for one head.

After that, you'll need to come up with some sensors, an ECM, and a fueling strategy. You could probably make it run with just a TPS, and a cam position sensor, but to come up with a really good fueling strategy, you'll need to be able to measure exhaust gas temperature and manifold pressure in real time, at least for R&D. Since you don't have to deal with the EPA, you'll have a much much easier time with your engine program than the OEM's do, but it's still going to be a lot of work to get it running the way you want.

So, short answer to your question, yes it can be done, but the cost in time and money would probably buy you a new Bluetech (at least).
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:25 PM
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Modern diesels use direct injection. A 240d uses indirect injection. Totally different cylinder head design. No pre-chamber with a DI engine.

It would be much easier and a lot cheaper to just swap an entire 220 CDI motor in. 45 mpg's and 170 hp from a 220 CDI motor, BTW.
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  #7  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:45 PM
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It would be nice to at least know if the newer engine could be swapped into the old 240s. Eventually they are going to turn up from car wrecks.
It is probably a given that the transmission has to go in as well. Maybe the rear end too. If a guy had access to all components of a wreck it might be doable. Are you ever going to need a shop manual for this one Tom.
It is still the best way to modernise the injection system if everything can be squeezed in there. Should kill a weekend easily.
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  #8  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:59 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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About three and a half days, right?

Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins& six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I am finishing a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual....I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #9  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:59 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Let's see. You can buy a high pressure belt-driven CP3 pump for around $3000. It'll come with some soft and hard lines, and you can probably make or have fabricated your own common rail for a few hundred dollars. After that it starts getting expensive. I don't think there are any common-rail injectors that will fit the OM616/617 head, so you could either modify (most likely design and build a completely new one) head that takes an available injector, or design and build your own injectors to fit the head. I'm thinking a new-from-scratch head would be cheaper and easier. If you're good with design and have previous experience in internal combustion cylinder head design, you could probably come up with a working design in a month or two, less if you bang away at it full time.

Then you have to get someone to manufacture the head for you, unless you have a sufficiently good home shop to do it. With CNC, this is a lot less expensive for a one-off than things used to be, but I'd still expect to pay over ten grand for one head.

After that, you'll need to come up with some sensors, an ECM, and a fueling strategy. You could probably make it run with just a TPS, and a cam position sensor, but to come up with a really good fueling strategy, you'll need to be able to measure exhaust gas temperature and manifold pressure in real time, at least for R&D. Since you don't have to deal with the EPA, you'll have a much much easier time with your engine program than the OEM's do, but it's still going to be a lot of work to get it running the way you want.

So, short answer to your question, yes it can be done, but the cost in time and money would probably buy you a new Bluetech (at least).

Awwwww, you guys are no fun!

Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins& six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I am finishing a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual....I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #10  
Old 01-13-2008, 11:44 PM
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You know, though...
A Blutec conversion kit (all the bits to make the new engine fit and work) in a 123 chassis would have a reasonable chance of selling...
How much is a crate motor and crate trans these days?
-nB
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  #11  
Old 01-13-2008, 11:47 PM
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This idea is not so far fetched. Before you hang me, let me explain. Here is what I am pondering. I know many guys with gas vehicles that need to run stand alone fuel injection systems. Why couldn't we do that with a diesel engine? I know that a mega squirt can be used to run fuel only ( not spark ) , all it needs is a tach signal, so the control unit knows where the engine position (timing) is. you might need a crank and/or cam position sensor and maybe a manifold air pressure / vacuum sensor.

So , quickly thinking about it, we would need:
The stand alone engine control system.
electronic injectors
electronic fuel pump(s)
Fabrication of a fuel rail, maybe injector adapters, maybe a toothed wheel for the crank
Wires, etc.

you would ditch the factory injection pump, lines and injectors.
the electronic fuel pump(s) would feed the fuel rail,
you would take the tach signal ( crank/cam sensor signal ) and the MAP sensor and feed it to the control unit.
then the control unit would send a signal to open and close each injector.

Its that simple. the only thing is that you would have to program the fuel map.

This would open up a world tunning options.

A quick search on ebay for "stand alone diesel injection" and I found:

http://www.nexumresearch.com/Commonrail.html

http://www.mwfi.com/fass/fass.html

the second link shows that these are replacements for some vehicles, but the idea is the same.

this is just a quick idea I gathered in 3 minutes while I posted this. If we think about it for a few days and research it, I think it could happen. BUT it would have a price tag, probably somewhere between $500 - $1000, However the benefits would be great. This would be great for people would want to run crazy boost levels since you are directly controlling the fuel delivery.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2008, 12:17 AM
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Doesn't Tempo in India do something like this already? Don't they have a direct injection version of the 616???
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2008, 12:23 AM
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It wouldn't really be a direct injection system as the prechamber would not be eliminated. thats the hard part and really not all that necessary.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:09 AM
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I'd totally swap a 220 CDI engine into my 240D, with a new transmission...trouble is I don't know where to get one from.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2008, 08:01 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Well, now there are some possibilities!

The one system apparently is already being marketed, but at $7000 the payoff would be pretty long!

I am not sure a system like megasquirt, designed for gasoline, would work for the heavier viscosity diesel fuel.

Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins& six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I am finishing a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual....I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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