Torque Question

[JPL]

Good Day All;

A quick question about torque specs.

I am replacing my oil pan because it is dented. I do not want to over-tighten the bolts, or squeeze the gasket too hard.

What is the recommended ft/lbs or NM torque spec for the pan fasteners. I want to say 8nm or around 5.75 ft/lbs. This is an inference based on a search in the forums on this site. This is what I believe to be the ratio for the Transmission pan, so do you think I can apply it to the Oil pan too?

Any advise or suggestion would be welcomed.

Thanks,
JPL
79 300CD, 233000 My First Benz- And I Love It !

[Edited by jpl on 07-13-2001 at 02:01 PM]

[ncarter]

Factory service manual says 10 Nm for the oil pan bolts.

While you're at this, please note the location and severity of the dent in the oil pan. The oil pump goes right down to the bottom of the sump pan, so if your oil pan is banged up badly enough, you may have damaged the oil pump!

- Nathan
'83 240D, 255k miles
'00 New Beetle TDI, 25k miles

[JPL]

Hey Nate;

Thanks for the spec. Do you think I can get one of those factory manuals at a dealer? What do you think of those cd-rom manuals?

The pump is not damaged, per my mechanic, who recently inspected the car for me after I purchased it. He is the mechanic that the previous owner used, so he is 'intimate' with the car. He informed me that the dent, which has been there for some time (I can see the rust), does not restrict oil flow. It looks like the previous owner may have ran over a low median strip or something.

But, the mechanic wanted $450 to replace the pan and gasket. When I was under the car opening the drain plug during an oil change, I noticed that the pan is 'free and clear' and easy to remove without being hindered by other engine components.

So I am going to give it a go. I wanted the spec to I don't over tighten and damage my gasket.

Thanks for your help. Any additional suggestions are welcomed.

James
79 300CD 234000 mi (At long last, my first Benz!)

[ncarter]

$450 for this simple job! ha!

Anyway, the general concensus regarding the CD-Rom manuals is that they're pretty nice and have some interesting features, but you can't really take them out to the garage with you while you're working on the car. As far as I know, they contain the exact same information as the print manuals.

As for getting your hands on print manuals: try the partsShop here, or try ebay. At the very least, get your hands on the Haynes manual, which is reasonably good but covers ALL the models from this era, so it's not diesel-specific. Also, some of the information is severely condensed (e.g. Step 1. Remove engine from car. Step 2. Disassemble engine). But, it's far better than nothing at all, and it's cheap.

Hmm, other advice: be safe while you're doing this. If you're a skinny guy like myself, just leave the car on the ground while you're doing this job. Otherwise, make sure it's well-supported with jack stands (NOT just the jack), wheels chocked, and parking brake on.

- Nathan
'83 240D, 255k miles
'00 New Beetle TDI, 27k miles

[Gilly]

Since you mentioned "rust" I a, a little concerned. Does this have the sheet metal lower pan (about the size of a square dog dish) and the aluminum upper pan? The lower pan, as it is called "my momma" could change, not a big job at all. The upper pan requires the engine to be raised slightly and can be a real tough job, $450 may be about right to do the upper pan. Be sure of what is being quoted....
Gilly

[JPL]

Nate;

Thanks for tip. I think I am going to go for the print manuals. I want them by my side while I am working on the car.

I have the Chilton's and Haynes manuals. You are so right about that whole "1.) Remove engine 2.) Disassemble Transmission." style. These manuals assume a great deal of knowledge on some steps, but in other areas, they are like, "note the steering wheel location in figure one...." I think Chiltons is a bit better, but just my opinion.

Thanks for the saftey tips too. I have a pair of 3-ton jack-stands and chockblocks. I am thin enough to get under the car without raising it, but it is easier to work with the front end raised about 10".

--------------------------------------

Gillybenztech;

Yep, about the size of a dog bowl is correct. The dent is about 1.5" long and about 1/4" deep. It is on the bottom of the pan, towards the front. Looks like the previous owner hit a parking median or curb. I too am concerned about the rust. I will see if the aluminum pan is damaged when I do the outer (sub/lower) pan change. If it is, then I will have to get the mechanic to perform that work. I think lifting the engine is too advanced a task for me. Besides, I don't have an engine hoist.

Thanks you both for your expertise. If you feel the urge, keep the information flowing.

I'll let you know how things turn out.


Thanks again to you both,
James
79 300CD 234000 mi (At long last, my first Benz!)



[Edited by jpl on 07-16-2001 at 02:57 AM]

[Gilly]

James:
In this case, I am sure he was quoting to replace the entire pan, not the lower pan only. That lower pan could be changed in roughly a half-hour.
If only the sheetmetal lower pan is damaged, you won't have any problems at all DYI'ing it.
I believe the oil sump pickup is available seperately if damaged, but doubt that there is any damage to it.
Stock up on Lava soap! Here's an interesting question:
What do other Diesel techs use to get the oil stains off there hands? I like Lava (bar soap seems to work better) or the powdered "20 Mule Team Borax" stuff, like Boraxo.
The best I've come up with is a combination of Boraxo with water and dishsoap. If I can't get it off pretty soon after working with it, I may as well count on "time" eventually getting rid of it, it won't wash off!
Gilly

[Zoonhollis]

Haynes does indeed publish a manual specifically for the W123 diesels, 77 through 85 year-models.

[JPL]

Zoonhollis;

Yep, that’s the one I have. As stated earlier, I think it is over simplified in some obvious areas, but also very presumptuous about the technical level of readers in other areas.

Comparing the Haynes and the Chilton's, although both could be more complete in some areas, I prefer the Chilton’s. I think I need to acquire the MB Shop manuals to gain the level of detail I seek.

Thanks.
--------------------------
Gilly;

Thanks for the dish-soap, Boraxo water solution tip. I'll have to try that. I already have stocked up on the Lava, but sometimes at work (in an office) I get funny looks when I still have a bit of oil around my fingernails from the weekend's car maintenance.

Yea that price quote, as you said, I thought couldn't be for just the 'dog dish' (my dog actually was really sniffing around the new oil pan that came in the mail). So, once I get in there I will see the extent of the dent's effect on the aluminum pan. If it is damaged, I'll just replace the outer pan, and save up for the mechanic's quoted rate. I know I cannot complete the upper-pan job, so I'll ask him to do it. As he said "oil flow is not restricted, but it is something you may consider replacing..."

Thanks
==============================
James
79 300CD 234000mi
My First Benz – And I Love It !

[Gilly]

James:
I wouldn't sweat the upper aluminum part of the pan. The sheetmetal lower pan always seems "eager" to absorb inpacts of this type without passing along damage to the upper pan. I'd use some gasket adhesive on the new lower pan and have the gasket in place and ready to go. The engine oil will drip "forever" and make a mess of your garage floor or driveway, assuming you are DIY'ing the job. If you pre-assemble the lower pan gasket to the pan, the sooner you can "put a lid on it".
The Diesel engine oil is just real tough to get off your hands, sorry if I was a little off-subject (the "ahems" make me wonder if my info was not appreciated or what).
The Boraxo you can usually find at the grocery store near the Lava. It is in a cylindrical cardboard container and is fairly cheap, usually less than a bar of Lava. You have to wet your hands first, I use water and dishsoap, then the Boraxo. The sooner you can do it after working with the Diesel oil the better.
"Mr Clean" Gilly

[JPL]

Gilly;

I was trying to reference two posts at once with the "Ahems". Zoonhollis had posted a reply with subject "Ahem", so in an attempt to consolidate subject lines, I was addressing both your and his posts. Sorry if you were put off by the tone of the subject. Please be assured, I was not frowning upon your deviation from the subject thread. In fact, I appreciate your suggestion about the Boraxo, and plan to get some.

Gasket Sealant? Really? That's news, but again, my knowlege is limited. Maybe I'll pole the forum, but I thought that the Benz literature did not recommend sealant, just lube it up with a bit of oil. Have you had measured success with the sealant? This is the first time I have changed an oil pan, so I am inclined to go "by the book" which in this case, would be the Benz recommendation. But then again, that recommendation may be for the Transmission pan gasket, not the lower oil pan gasket.

If sealant is going to be used, what brand to you suggest? Are Adhesive and sealant the same thing?

Perhaps I'll post a "To Seal or Not to Seal" thread in the Diesel Discussion and we can follow it together. Fun stuff?

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

James
Philadelphia PA
79 300CD 234000mi
My First Benz - And I Love It!

[Edited by jpl on 07-18-2001 at 12:59 AM]

[Zoonhollis]

FYI,

My "ahem" was in reference to this quote by ncarter above:

"At the very least, get your hands on the Haynes manual, which is reasonably good but covers ALL the models from this era, so it's not diesel-specific."

...which is inaccurate, since there IS a diesel-specific manual.

[Gilly]

OK, got it.
James:
No, not a sealant. Sealant, especially Loctite 5900, is recommended in several locations, not sure about you specific engine, though. It would probably be fine for the upper pan where it meets the block. For your application I was referring to an adhesive to hold the gasket to the lower pan to make reassembly a little easier. The stuff I use for this at work is also Loctite, unsure of the name or number of the product, but I'm sure any gasket adhesive would work fine.
I too am a "by the book" kind of guy, many times to the chagrin of my co-workers.....
Gilly

[ncarter]

Yes, I was mistaken. It's the Chilton's that covers all the Mercedes of this era, diesel and gasoline. I don't have the Haynes for this car.

- Nathan
'83 240D, 255k miles
'00 New Beetle TDI, 27k miles

[JPL]

Gilly;

Thanks for the clarification between sealant and adhesive. There is so much gunk that comes in cans and tubes to use on your car parts, it can become confusing when there are synonymous terms for the same compound.

If I understand it correctly, you are recommending adhesive and not sealant. That sounds logical, because when I think about where the 'squeezed' sealant would go, I shudder a bit, thinking that it is inside the oil pan as well as outside, and thus would eventually make its way into the engine. Yikes!

So I think just a few pinhead sized beads of this Loctite Adhesive should do the trick. Do you think that is enough? Also, should I lube the gasket with a little motor oil, then apply the Loctite or position and secure the gasket(with adhesive), then lube, then fasten the pan? Any tricks to cleaning the old gasket off the engine?
Thanks for indulging in my battery of questions, but I want to avoid creating a leaking problem.

FYI: I posted 2 threads asking about folks' opinions concerning sealant for the oil pan gasket. I posted one in tech forum and one here in diesel. So far we have 2 for Seal and 2 for Not Seal (both Seals in Tech, and both Not Seals in Diesel). So in total, including your recommendation the Not Seals are taking it. Which, as somebody in one of the threads, and yourself, pointed out, is the Benz recommendation.

Again thanks. If you think of anything else, please let me know.

James
Philadelphia, PA
79 300CD 234000mi
Engine 617.912
Chassis 123.250
My First Benz - And I love it!

[Edited by jpl on 07-20-2001 at 08:38 AM]