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  #1  
Old 02-07-2008, 01:25 AM
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Bored-out OM617?

Just a distant thought right now but...
I've searched the forum and even Google but can't really find much about boring out the cylinders or stroking the engine if one were needing to rebuild one of these 3.0L Turbo Diesels.
I've read about MB doing some mods that didn't go so well (bent rods) but I've also read about a MB modified 300SD running on a track for 12 hours with an average speed of 195MPH and pretty good fuel economy.
With the high performance pistons, rods and cams on the market today, has anybody looked into a bored/stroked 3.0L? Or is the compression, torque and limits of the block and head pretty much at their limit?
I don't have much Diesel experience at all; maybe this is something that's just not done.
It's just an idea rumbling around in my little brain. Nothing going on in the Skunk Works -- Wyle E. Coyote garage other than getting the Harmonic Balancer and Dowel Pins lined up right now.
Any thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2008, 01:44 AM
ForcedInduction
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Look here for performance: http://schumanautomotive.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19
The engine's only real limit is your money. With a Myna pump, intercooler, large turbo, 3" exhaust, and modified tranny you could pump out over 400hp with 100% stock internals.

There isn't a way to bore/stroke out a 617 unless you make custom pistons and custom cylinder liners from scratch. Even the factory second oversize pistons only equal around 0.05L more displacment.
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2008, 10:48 AM
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Forced is right. Except to stroke it you would need a custom crank too.

"Speed is just a matter of money." -- Some character in Mad Max
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  #4  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:28 AM
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That's what the turbo is for

A combustion engine is just a big air pump and how much air you can pump is the limiting factor of how much power you can make. In order to make power you burn fuel and in order to burn that fuel you need a certain amount of oxygen. Since it's relatively easy to pump a lot of fuel into an engine most performance mods have to do with ways to get more air through the motor to enable the burning of more fuel.

In a normally aspirated engine it will only pump as much air as the displacement of the motor. So in a 3.0 liter engine it can only pump a maximum of 3 liters of air for every two revolutions in a four cycle engine. In order to make more power you have to get more air so you make the engine bigger. Alternately you could add a greater concentration of oxygen in the air you are getting which is the purpose of nitrous oxide.

In a forced induction motor you are literally forcing more air into the engine which effectively increases its size. So if your turbo delivers one bar of boost the motor is pumping as much air through it as a normally aspirated motor twice its size. Of course there are things that affect this in the real world like how much air the intake and exhaust flow and how efficient your turbo is.

The end result is that if you have a turbo motor you can spend a lot of time and money boring and stroking it or simply adjust the wastegate for a few more pounds of boost and accomplish the same thing. And of course along with more air you need to deliver the extra fuel and make sure the motor can handle the extra power.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
With a Myna pump, intercooler, large turbo, 3" exhaust, and modified tranny you could pump out over 400hp with 100% stock internals.
Ok, that got my interest.
Are you saying this can be done on a 5 cyl. .......like my 300D?
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81 Mercedes 300SD 289k.......SOLD
82 Mercedes 300CD 252k......slow ride

82 mercedes 300 SD...mi Unknown
83 Mercedes 300D ????ksniff..gone too
84 Mercedes 300D 148k........SOLD
85 Mercedes 300TD 386k and holding some one elses project
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:30 PM
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Someone needs to link jack to the vido/pics of the green 300TD they made- MB M111supercharger and larger turbo on a 617 engine...
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1980 500SE/AMG Euro
1981 500SEL Euro
1982 380SEL
1983 300TD
1983 500SEC/AMG Euro
1984 500SEC
1984 300TD Euro
1986 190E 2.3-16
1986 190E 2.3
1987 300D
1997 C36 AMG
2003 C320T 4matic

past: 1969 280SE 4.5 | 1978 240D | 1978 300D | 1981 300SD | 1981 300SD | 1982 300CD | 1983 300CD | 1983 300SD | 1983 380SEC | 1984 300D | 1984 300D | 1984 300TD | 1984 500SEL | 1984 300SD | 1985 300D | 1986 300E | 1986 560SEL | 1986 560SEL/Carat | 1987 560SEC | 1991 300D 2.5 | 2006 R350
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:27 PM
AHH,What's up Doc????
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesNB View Post
Just a distant thought right now but...
I've searched the forum and even Google but can't really find much about boring out the cylinders or stroking the engine if one were needing to rebuild one of these 3.0L Turbo Diesels.
I've read about MB doing some mods that didn't go so well (bent rods) but I've also read about a MB modified 300SD running on a track for 12 hours with an average speed of 195MPH and pretty good fuel economy.
With the high performance pistons, rods and cams on the market today, has anybody looked into a bored/stroked 3.0L? Or is the compression, torque and limits of the block and head pretty much at their limit?
I don't have much Diesel experience at all; maybe this is something that's just not done.
It's just an idea rumbling around in my little brain. Nothing going on in the Skunk Works -- Wyle E. Coyote garage other than getting the Harmonic Balancer and Dowel Pins lined up right now.
Any thoughts?
Be practical! Horsepower and torque prices incrrease rapidly after 1 horse per cubic inch and reliability drops too! Practical for the Mercedes Benz 5 Cylinder diesel motor is 160 HP (156 cu.in.) After this start spending twice the money for the bing bang bling under that hood! Reliability begins to drop too.

Watch out for claims about horses under there. Digital Dyno's will give any reading you want if you put in the factors you are after. I made a mistake with a computerised stopwatch in my 0-60 time because of a failed component! Analog measurements don't lie!
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  #8  
Old 02-08-2008, 01:08 AM
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Great info. I'll review the Schuman site this weekend. I'm not planning to send out for a bunch of high priced mods, just as things need replacing, upgrading.
I do agree. If there is smoke coming out the tailpipe, add more oxygen rather than more fuel. And increasing the ease of flow of exhaust gases.
Keep the info coming!
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  #9  
Old 02-08-2008, 02:52 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhef View Post
Someone needs to link jack to the vido/pics of the green 300TD they made- MB M111supercharger and larger turbo on a 617 engine...
Impressive looking setup no doubt but in the end it was a failure. They never made anything beyond some build pictures and one burnout video. It was disassembled some time ago.
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  #10  
Old 02-08-2008, 07:00 AM
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I'd be happy with only 300hp.
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81 Mercedes 300SD 289k.......SOLD
82 Mercedes 300CD 252k......slow ride

82 mercedes 300 SD...mi Unknown
83 Mercedes 300D ????ksniff..gone too
84 Mercedes 300D 148k........SOLD
85 Mercedes 300TD 386k and holding some one elses project
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2008, 07:39 AM
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The ones that I've seen linked to from the Schuman site, over in Finland, tended to use 603 engines from what I remember.

The cross flow head design was the improvement that they were after, if I remember correctly
Again, assuming that I'm remembering correctly, the more common 400hp cars were running a 603 with a supercharger and a turbo, as well as intercooling. Lots of intercooling!
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2008, 07:49 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_allen View Post
Again, assuming that I'm remembering correctly, the more common 400hp cars were running a 603 with a supercharger and a turbo, as well as intercooling. Lots of intercooling!
The green wagon is the only one with a supercharger so far. The majority of the Superturbos use a 603 or 606 engine with a Holset turbo between HY35 and HX50.

One 603 has a GT3788V VGT turbo and currently gets 415hp.
Attached Thumbnails
Bored-out OM617?-w124-300d-gt37v-complete.jpg   Bored-out OM617?-om603-gt37v-dyno-415hp.jpg  
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2008, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Impressive looking setup no doubt but in the end it was a failure. They never made anything beyond some build pictures and one burnout video. It was disassembled some time ago.
well thats disapointing. I followed their build pictures for months and the last I saw of it was that video. Why did it fail? Did it blow?
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1980 500SE/AMG Euro
1981 500SEL Euro
1982 380SEL
1983 300TD
1983 500SEC/AMG Euro
1984 500SEC
1984 300TD Euro
1986 190E 2.3-16
1986 190E 2.3
1987 300D
1997 C36 AMG
2003 C320T 4matic

past: 1969 280SE 4.5 | 1978 240D | 1978 300D | 1981 300SD | 1981 300SD | 1982 300CD | 1983 300CD | 1983 300SD | 1983 380SEC | 1984 300D | 1984 300D | 1984 300TD | 1984 500SEL | 1984 300SD | 1985 300D | 1986 300E | 1986 560SEL | 1986 560SEL/Carat | 1987 560SEC | 1991 300D 2.5 | 2006 R350
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2008, 09:20 PM
ForcedInduction
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I don't know what went worng with it. The design was overcomplicated and several points could have been done better, maybe they started a differnt project.
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