Are VW TDI Engines as tough as Mercedes W123 Diesels? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MTUpower · #1 03-18-2008, 10:28 AM

As tough as? is the question. Why? They both propel the car. They both run on diesel. One gets twice the mileage as the other. One pushes the car to 60 much faster than the other. If you ask a bunch of ducks who is better looking- a duck or a swan, what do you think the answer will be?

Angel · #2 03-18-2008, 12:45 PM

(I just broke my ABA gasser motor doing this...)

You could point a pressure washer at any place in my 240D's engine bay, and leave it there (for a while), and the engine would start right up 99% of the time.

Do that to a TDI motor ? your percentage is down to 70% or 80% - there are too many connectors, too many sensors, too many computers.

I'm not saying that you cant wash a TDI engine, but you need to be more careful.

That said, you CAN compare an OM617 and a TDI - They are both engines made to power mid-size sedans. You could assume that as far as transporting people goes, a 1985 300D and a 1999 Passat TDI are equally functional (they both hold 4 people in acceptable comfort and have a trunk- you can argue whether or not you need airbags, or an MB Star on the front to transport 4 people). The cost of the engine and car package arent very close, ($5k for the 300D, $10K for the passat ?) but these prices are still wayy below the cost of a 2008 Passat TDI (if sold) or 2008 E320 CDI) or even the cost of a Chevy Malibu (another mid-size sedan).

its a fair comparison. My grading scale is shown above =)

-John

pawoSD · #3 03-19-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

(I just broke my ABA gasser motor doing this...)

You could point a pressure washer at any place in my 240D's engine bay, and leave it there (for a while), and the engine would start right up 99% of the time.

Do that to a TDI motor ? your percentage is down to 70% or 80% - there are too many connectors, too many sensors, too many computers.

I'm not saying that you cant wash a TDI engine, but you need to be more careful.

-John

However, a tdi probably doesn't ooze as much as the 616/617's so it doesn't really need to be cleaned as much in the first place.

pawoSD · #4 03-19-2008, 12:11 AM

Here's a good question about the tdi's.....why are the timing belts such an issue? Are they hard on them or something?

Our caravan is supposed to have a 90k timing belt change interval on the 3.0 V6 mitsubishi under the hood, its coming up on 94k on the original....we're not changing it. ($700 at shop, or 3 years in the garage tearing everything apart to get to it) So....we'll see how long it lasts, when it snaps its off to the pickn'pull.

It does have a rapping sound in that vicinity that developed recently....so maybe death is near....my sister only drives about 60-70 miles a week at most, and the fastest she goes is 55....so it will probably cling to life for a while yet.

Same for my lovely's Rav4, it has a "70k" timing belt change interval....it was replaced at 70k...but now it has 143k....we'll see if it holds till we sell the car.

Hatterasguy · #5 03-19-2008, 12:45 AM

You should do it on the Toyota, they are pretty simple to do. 143k isn't really much for a car like that either, no reason it won't pass 200k.

I hate VW's with a passion, so I'm not going to say anything because it won't be good. But I will say if I am ever forced to get a cheap car it will be a Honda or a Toyota, because at least it won't leak oil and have a billion electrical shorts, and be a total POS. They are actualy designed and built pretty well for cheap cars. I don't understand the point of buying a cheap German car, they have all the issues the good ones have, and none of the enjoyment when they are running right to make up for it. Its like wow I feel like I am driving a poorly designed Civic, wow there goes the speedo again!

Is that smoke! Wow I havn't seen a dashboard short like that since my Grandmothers old Lucus Jag!

I know the TDI guys were freaking over this ULSD thing because they have rotary pumps that burn out. Good riddence I rather drive a 40mpg gas Civic than one of these junks.

I got the pleasure to get up close in personal with a 97 Passat VR6 over the weekend, junk, junk, junk, I wish it was a V6 Camry. Everything is freaken plastic and breaks, all the door handles are broke, the wiring is all exposed and shorting out, all the coolant lines are cheap plastic and snapping. I touched the crank case vent and it snapped off, touched!

That car is a freaken joke, I wouldn't pay a $1 for it. You have to pull the freaken engine to change the chains, which supposidly need changing every 100k, and you almost need to pull the damn thing to change the serp belt. They seem to have used a similer T chain design that Jag did on their early V8's, so super crappy. Sure as heck makes me appreciate how the mount a V6 in a good car, like an E320. An E320 is about a million times simpler to service. Everything is right on top or in front and easy to get at, none of the plastic breaks, and you never have to mess with the T chains. Considering the Passat probably cost damn near what an E320 cost in 1997...all I have to say to the original owner is sucka!

Oh wow I kind of ranted a bit!

Sorry I got the pleasure of messing with a VR6 this weekend and it just reminded me oh how much I hate these things.

pawoSD · #6 03-19-2008, 01:21 AM

My lovely wants a bug/golf/jetta tdi for the high mpgs....but I insist she go with a 190d 2.2 or 2.5 diesel instead, as it will be everlastingly easier to work on and would probably break faaar less often. No timing belt! She vastly prefers automatics to manuals, and it seems auto-tdi's are hard to find/super expensive anyways. Her current Rav4, while a reliable car (currently, though its had about 5 weird issues in the 3 months she's driven it) is a death trap on wheels. I don't want to get a call someday about an accident where the car's safety let her down. In a 190d she'd be far safer. If the $$ is sufficient someday I will probably get her like a 1998 C220 or something, as she likes those also. Heck you can get a fairly low miles C220 for less than a tdi VW costs! I'll take the MB!

The Rav4's timing belt is no easier to replace than the caravan, maybe slightly, but not by much....I've got the haynes manual, and it looks like a major PITA. Shop to do it is about $750-800, So thats a no-way....especially since my wish would be to have it disappear by the end of summer....maybe it will break before then. Its a manual trans, and the manual isn't perfect anymore either at 143k, the syncros don't mesh as well, and it is finicky about shifting sometimes, especially in the cold. (has brand new M1 Syn gear oil in it...so thats not the issue) It also has the Engine light on now for a failing/failed O2 sensor....and it doesn't like getting wet (struggled to hold idle after car wash) and randomly doesn't idle properly in general (stalls) due to a faulty idle control valve, which is $200...no thanks. Its mileage is poor-to very poor for a car of its size....it only weighs 2300lbs with a 2.0 4cyl, and gets 18-21mpg. Thats it...with a manual, driven gently!!! It has no sound insulation, unless you count the dash itself and the floor mats! And it rev's to 3200 at 70mph on the freeway. Can you say "loud whiny gasser engine"...because thats what it sounds like. Though its dulled by the ROAR of the road....its 2-3x as loud as my car at the same speed, and mine has a straight pipe!

Ok, done with Rav4 rant.

Carrameow · #7 03-19-2008, 02:55 AM

I was really looking at a TDI. When I came back on this forum I swear I would behave myself.
Heh heh, now that I've already been convicted of bait threading, wait till I really get cooking when i come out of my midlife slump in a month or two..

Then you will see threads like "Wouldnt it be more fun to be rich and play golf and sneer at dieselheads?" or "Why does a six pack make wrenching so much more fun?" Or "have you ever had one too many and worked on your car and tripped all over your tools and extension cords and broken anything? " Or "Does your wife secretly laugh at you?"

Hatterasguy · #8 03-19-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

My lovely wants a bug/golf/jetta tdi for the high mpgs....but I insist she go with a 190d 2.2 or 2.5 diesel instead, as it will be everlastingly easier to work on and would probably break faaar less often. No timing belt! She vastly prefers automatics to manuals, and it seems auto-tdi's are hard to find/super expensive anyways. Her current Rav4, while a reliable car (currently, though its had about 5 weird issues in the 3 months she's driven it) is a death trap on wheels. I don't want to get a call someday about an accident where the car's safety let her down. In a 190d she'd be far safer. If the $$ is sufficient someday I will probably get her like a 1998 C220 or something, as she likes those also. Heck you can get a fairly low miles C220 for less than a tdi VW costs! I'll take the MB!

The Rav4's timing belt is no easier to replace than the caravan, maybe slightly, but not by much....I've got the haynes manual, and it looks like a major PITA. Shop to do it is about $750-800, So thats a no-way....especially since my wish would be to have it disappear by the end of summer....maybe it will break before then. Its a manual trans, and the manual isn't perfect anymore either at 143k, the syncros don't mesh as well, and it is finicky about shifting sometimes, especially in the cold. (has brand new M1 Syn gear oil in it...so thats not the issue) It also has the Engine light on now for a failing/failed O2 sensor....and it doesn't like getting wet (struggled to hold idle after car wash) and randomly doesn't idle properly in general (stalls) due to a faulty idle control valve, which is $200...no thanks. Its mileage is poor-to very poor for a car of its size....it only weighs 2300lbs with a 2.0 4cyl, and gets 18-21mpg. Thats it...with a manual, driven gently!!! It has no sound insulation, unless you count the dash itself and the floor mats! And it rev's to 3200 at 70mph on the freeway. Can you say "loud whiny gasser engine"...because thats what it sounds like. Though its dulled by the ROAR of the road....its 2-3x as loud as my car at the same speed, and mine has a straight pipe!

Ok, done with Rav4 rant.

That car must have been beat or something, she has only driven it for 3 months? Add another 1k to that btw, the old Rav's weighed more than that. My old 93 Camry has near 200k miles on it now and still runs like a top. I did the T belt in a few hours and it really wasn't that difficult. Around here shops charge $300-$400 to do them and make out.

You should get her a new Impala. I know someone who goes to the auctions that the dealers buy from. He was buying clean 2007-08 Impala's from company fleets for like $10k-$11k. Those still use the 3.8 with GM's 4spd, damn reliable and cheap to fix cars.

zeet · #9 03-19-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I got the pleasure to get up close in personal with a 97 Passat VR6 over the weekend, junk, junk, junk, I wish it was a V6 Camry. Everything is freaken plastic and breaks, all the door handles are broke, the wiring is all exposed and shorting out, all the coolant lines are cheap plastic and snapping. I touched the crank case vent and it snapped off, touched!

That car is a freaken joke, I wouldn't pay a $1 for it. You have to pull the freaken engine to change the chains, which supposidly need changing every 100k, and you almost need to pull the damn thing to change the serp belt. They seem to have used a similer T chain design that Jag did on their early V8's, so super crappy. Sure as heck makes me appreciate how the mount a V6 in a good car, like an E320. An E320 is about a million times simpler to service. Everything is right on top or in front and easy to get at, none of the plastic breaks, and you never have to mess with the T chains. Considering the Passat probably cost damn near what an E320 cost in 1997...all I have to say to the original owner is sucka!

I put 75k on a '95 Passat VR6. I changed the serp belt in 20 minutes with a half-dozen tools. I did the timing chains at 135k, same time as the clutch and did the rear main seal while I was in there. No worse than changing the clutch in any other transverse mount FWD car I've ever seen. The engine didn't have to come out, but I did have to drop the transmission. Job would have been easier if I'd dropped the subframe, but I didn't have to do that, and didn't even need an engine lift. The timing chains were in fine shape, but one of the guides was starting to break up, so it made sense. I could have just replaced the guide and reused the chain, I was sure. Comparing to a RWD car like the E320 is a bit unfair - the layout is just easier to maintain on FR than FF. And the price? The '97 Passat MSRP was $21890. The E320 was $45500 in '98, and I can't find the '97 MSRP. A car double the price should certainly be better!

At 143k, none of the door handles were broken. None of the wiring was exposed. None of the coolant lines had broken. It still had the original cat and O2 sensor - compare that to an E320. And the worst tank fuel mileage I ever got was 25MPG. Also, I drove that car for two years after it was sideswiped and then T-boned by a semi and spun across three lanes of traffic into the center divider. I drove it home from that! A junkyard door in the same color bolted right up, and a couple thousand in bodywork fixed the rest - the 'frame' was perfectly straight, all the energy had gone into the panels.

The car wasn't perfect, but I sold it because I got tired of being too tall for the car, not because it was worn out. In fact, that was almost three years ago and it's still driving around now.

I'm not saying VWs are faultless - I really do prefer my E300 to the Passat. The Passat stranded me twice, too: once when the crank sensor went out, once when the fuel pump died. But it would also push through six inches of snow with Blizzaks on, was a kick to fling around twisties going up mountain roads in Humboldt County, regularly returned 28MPG in mixed driving, had comfortable seats, looked not out of place pretty much anywhere, didn't leak or burn oil with 143k on it ... and I love the sound of that VR6 engine.

Horses for courses, eh? There are badly maintained VWs, and there are badly maintained Mercedes. But I see examples of both running around far longer than any American cars! Of course, the VW will have plastic trim breaking off, and the Mercedes will have no cruise. What's one to do? Meh.

zeet · #10 03-19-2008, 03:02 AM

Btw, Hatt: on those broken door handles, if you pull them out (one screw! One connector also for the driver's side front) you will see the problem is a friction-fit roll pin. You can replace it with a sleeve and a narrow screw, with a little Loctite they never need to be touched again. You will see what I mean if you look at how the assembly works. Any decent junk box should be able to come up with the parts to fix it.

How's that old Benz odometer? The digital one on the Passat is unlikely to break ... of course, it rolls over at 300k. Oops!

Tymbrymi · #11 03-19-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

Here's a good question about the tdi's.....why are the timing belts such an issue? Are they hard on them or something?

Diesels are interference engines... if the timing belt breaks the engine is toast (think broken valves, camshaft, maybe pistons, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

Our caravan is supposed to have a 90k timing belt change interval on the 3.0 V6 mitsubishi under the hood, its coming up on 94k on the original....we're not changing it. ($700 at shop, or 3 years in the garage tearing everything apart to get to it) So....we'll see how long it lasts, when it snaps its off to the pickn'pull.

It does have a rapping sound in that vicinity that developed recently....so maybe death is near....my sister only drives about 60-70 miles a week at most, and the fastest she goes is 55....so it will probably cling to life for a while yet.

Same for my lovely's Rav4, it has a "70k" timing belt change interval....it was replaced at 70k...but now it has 143k....we'll see if it holds till we sell the car.

You need to check to see if they are interference engines. Some gassers are and some aren't. If they are *not* interference engines you'll just coast to the side of the road if it breaks... if it *is* an interference engine... the same problems from a diesel will happen.