1984 300TD, I diagnosed a failed IP after rough idle, lack of power & eventual non start, replaced IP with used low mileage IP, set engine at 24% with lobes pointed up & installed IP with marks aligned on IP cam, I have drip tube ordered but first wanted to see if it would start.when I went to install hard lines I found they did not line up with IP in the position I set it at, so I moved IP to where I could attach hard lines, after bleeding it started very easily & after adj. of dampener bolt it idles very nicely, but no power, awaiting drip tube but am worried that I was off the 24% mark or some other mistake that would mean R&R the IP & filter cannister again, please, not that!! read on this forum that setting engine at 24% on ex. would still permit starting, so I'm worried I made a mistake but the lobes were pointed up so I don't think it's the prob, any adj of IP looks like it would require line bending, is this to be expected? car bought with 329K,now has 340K, replacement IP did not have fitting on side for pin that can be used to set timing, original did

Did the new IP come frm an 84-85? Anything prior will not have the port you refer to.

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RRGrassi


70's Southern Pacific #5608 Fairmont A-4 MOW car

13 VW JSW 2.0 TDI 193K, Tuned with DPF and EGR Delete.

91 W124 300D Turbo replaced, Pressure W/G actuator installed. 210K

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 400K

It sure is. You need to make the lines fit the IP, not the other way around.

when I get my drip tube I'll adjust & bend lines to fit, is it likely that with pump set "randomly" I would have no power?

At this point you have no ideal where the timing is so the answer is yes it is a possibility.

OK, thanks for the input, I await arrival of drip tube & accurate timing, any other input will be appreciated, also, after engine started I had no tach. at idle, but did when revved,after running & checking for leaks etc. now no tach either way, where does tach get signal from?

It seems you had low power with the old pump as well. I would perhaps pull the fuel line at the rear tank and make sure there is plenty of flow. Have the fuel filters been checked or changed reciently?
Perhaps a good easy check instead is to disconnect the return line at the pump and make sure there is excess fuel flowing. Plus not a lot of air being expelled either. You really want no air coming through the system.

Put the hose from the return line in a bottle with enough fuel to cover the end of the hose and watch for air bubbles too. I do not know the rate or amount of fuel expected at idle but there has to be some fuel coming out or the injection pump is not getting enough fuel.

If excess fuel is there raise the rpms to verify the surplus fuel leaving the pump continues.

How did you establish the old pump was bad? No fuel at certain injectors?


The excess return fuel flow check is just to establish you indeed do have enough fuel present. Your problem could still easily be the timing is off.

You may find when doing the drip test you are even a few teeth off on the pump shaft splines for example. The only reason I mentioned the removal of the return hose to check fuel flow is it is easy and quick to do. You may wish to wait for a drip tube.

Low power can even be an issue with the boost to fuel enrichment device on the pump. The lines and fittings from the manifold to the alda are notorious for getting obstructed internally.

The injection pump cannot then supply the extra required fuel on demand. So little power results. A very common problem. There will be a lot of threads in the archives. Ask for boost enrichment or low power to get information threads. Perhaps you have already covered the last item earlier?

Barry, thanks for your input, engine started losing power, rough idle, last fall, eventually would not start, while it was still running I adj. valves, much better starts smoother but still losing power, then cracked 4 & 5 injection lines while idling with no change, no fuel spurting out of them but stalling & fuel drip on 1 2 & 3, eventually it would not start & I made the diagnosis of the IP, found a really clean IP, possibly earlier year but under 50K, when installed it started right up, so I think my diagnosis is correct, all lines, filters, in tank screen, & the tank itself, have been cleaned or checked, I'll follow up with a post when I get drip tube

From your updated description I would do the return line overflow test. It is not all that common for two pump elements to fail close to each other. The common cause of two elements not fuelling the injectors that are at one end of the pump is either too much air introduced to the pump with the fuel or not enough fuel getting into the pump. . Both conditions can produce fuel starvation of some elements. Both weak power and other effects like rough idle and no start conditions can easily result.

It could and probably is the worn elements in your old pump of course. Nothing is written in stone or very few things are in this world.

I would want to check the pumps return output for no air output into the return line as well as enough volume of fuel to sustain proper operation of the pump. It is a very simple test and means you will not be chasing other things later.
Probably it is fine but you have to be certain in my opinion. I know the new pump seems to idle better yet if the temperature has had a real swing lately this can have an effect not really calculatable on air leaks or volume delivery of fuel to the pump. You really have many things to check out if the timing of the pump does not bring the power back.
The chances of two pumps producing low power are not high. Keep what I have mentioned in mind. Sorry to drone on. I really just want you thinking if setting the pump timing does not improve things enough. I still hope it's just really the pump timing.

I posted last week on installing an IP in a 300TD, I now have my drip tube & attempted to time IP. On installation of IP I was sure I had set engine at 24% on compression & IP with marks aligned but when I try to get drip I have to rotate engine to 58% before I get the 1 drip per sec., does this indicate I was wrong on my engine % & was on intake stroke? I'm not looking forward to pulling oil filter cannister again. Barry, any input from you or anyone is appreciated. I've read the article in DIY on this forum, which describes timing slightly differently than the shop manual I'm using

Got home from my neices wedding reception awhile ago and perhaps over imbibed a small amount so my concentration is lacking to some extent. If you are reading 58 degrees after top dead centre then your pump is off by eight teeth on the pump spline. Each injection pump spline tooth is ten degrees on the crank.

Now if you are reading fifty eight degrees before top dead centre at the termination of the drip you are three teeth off on the spline of the injection pump. I am pretty sure you can figure out the rest.


Sorry but it sounds like you have to pull and reset the pump in my opinion. I will let others that have not been sampling spirits give clearer instructions or assistance this evening. Make sure you are satisfied on how you did the drip test. This should not become really frustrating to straighten out. Remember much better than having an unknown problem lurking. The real beauty is after you clean this up establishing pump timing in the future will be like rolling off a log.

In fact it already sounds like you are getting the addiction to these cars. You know how it goes. You get one fix and feel good. Then several more make you feel even better. Before you realise it you are getting almost constant fixes. These cars will cater to your addiction well. I have four 123 diesels to service my addiction when I can find the time. Most members in fact have more than one to make sure their needs are met.

Thanks Barry & congrats on your niece's wedding, I'll go over all my work before I remove IP & reset but I don't understand my error .. yet,

With my glow of the previous evening gone. Plus no others responding yet. I still feel with the drip test done as per instructions logic says the same as last night.

Read the forum archives step by step proccedure for the drip tube test and follow it as hundreds have done succesfully. If it checks out the same the second time just move the injection pump teeth.

I would hardly describe something like what seems to have occured as an error..
My best guess if it turns out to be the spline off by some teeth. Someone may have float timed the last pump in. Basically the same as you will be doing to correct the timing displacement,

If you tried to match the missing spline tooth with the original index position it could be off. The intended position of course matches up yet is wrong. For one reason or another the sprocket for the pump drive is probably off in its intended relation to the crank sprocket. Perhaps the last time someone changed the timing chain it happened. .This is still correctable by movement of the spline teeth.


Between the sprocket and the pump resides the mechanical pump advance. There have been almost no reports of its failure. I only state this because it is there. Actually it is amazing it fails so seldomly. Basically a mechanisim of springs and weights.


On 1985 and perhaps 1984 only there is a locking device that goes on the side of the pump to position the internal mechanisim. Then you just position your harmonic balancer to the recomended position and slide the pump in the centre area of your adjustment arc. You do not have to do the drip test at all either as it is automatically right on is more probable. I have not done one of those pumps yet.

If it is your type of pump you like myself might be doing it the hard way. I too have an 84 300d but have not even checked the pump timing yet. I would probably do it without the special tool if required as it is not easily available. Thats if I had to change pumps. Or if you were using an earlier replacement pump it would not have the slot anyways.

On reading your first posting over again you do have an 84. If you read the archives and find your old pump had this feature it may explain all. As of the introduction of the new pump there would be no requirement to install the timing chain sprockets in the relationship of the previous engines that required the index position guide at the factory. It then became totally irrelivant. They had no need to redo the tooling for the spline etc either as it did no harm.

Made life a little easier with the new system. There is an internal slot in the pump. You just rotate the pump shaft with the pump off the engine till you can engage the locking slot with your special tool.

Very late addition. I probed the archives and it seems you can use the riv tool to read the slots position in 1984 and 1985 injection pumps..So the updated timing changes mentioned did extend backwards to 1984 pumps from what I read in the archives. Just another nail in tha coffin for trusting the factory index position. The factory and dealers were no longer using it or had need to.

I do not know that this will be of help or not. I was at the junkyard ans saw an 82 300SD from which the IP was apparently removed without removing the Oil Filter Housing. Next to the car I found the Vacuum Shuttoff from the IP (which as it turned out was no good; would not hold vacuum). I believe that the Vacuum Shuttoff was removed from the IP so that the IP could be removed without removing the OIl Filter Housing.
In any event the IP was gone and the Oil Filter Housing was not disturbed.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

I removed mine from my scrap engine without taking anything off of it.

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Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

As long as they would add one additional commandment for you to keep thy religion to thyself.
George Carlin (Wonder where he is now..)

1981 240d (engine donor 1983 240d) recently rebuilt engine hurray! - No more.. fought a tree and the tree won.

pearl black 1983 240d 4speed (Converted!@$$%) atleast the tranny was rebuilt.