Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

sjh · #31 08-11-2011, 11:01 PM

FYI

There are at least 2, possibly more, highly trained and qualified A/C professionals who spend a great deal of time here.

I'm pretty sure that they have made their perspective on hydrocarbon refrigerants in autos known.

So what I am sharing is for accuracy and clarity. I'm not encouraging folks to use HC auto refrigerants.

The procedure the OP used for es-12a has a couple of errors that I could see without going in to it in great detail. Also some of the statements he said are different than what the trained A/C folks I know who have used es-12a recommend.

So, IF you are going to do this kind of stuff, don't follow his procedure.

'nuff said.

Codifex Maximus · #32 08-12-2011, 02:21 AM

Well, my interest was piqued on HC-12a/ES-12a (Propane and IsoButane) so I did a few hours of research.

ES-12a is nearly a perfect drop in replacement for R-12. No need to replace anything. Compatible with just about any oil, properties similar to R-12, no need to replace any hoses or other gear, if it escapes it has little if any effect on ozone layer or global warming, degrades rapidly so it doesn't build up in the environment. Oh, and it cools efficiently while drawing less energy from the host system.

However, it is flammable if the gas escapes into an oxygen environment. Very high flashpoint - higher than R-134a it is said. (R-134a degrades to poisonous gasses in the presence of temperatures not much higher that a burning cigarette).

Seems kinda stupid for the EPA to make ES-12a illegal when it's perfectly legal to drive an oversize gas can in the first place. It's generally ok to buy it but you can't use it in any system that has used R-12. Also, you may not vent the gas but gas leaks out of cooking systems all the time and from gas lines, storage tanks and delivery trucks.

Furthmore, it's ok to use R-134a which still depletes the ozone layer just not as much as R-12/22. It's also ok to use blends of R-22 of less than or equal to 50% along with other ozone depleting HCFC components.

Who makes these laws?

Lobbyists?

compress ignite · #33 08-12-2011, 02:54 AM

'Can you say Lobbyist HOOres for I.E. DuPont Nemours ?

What I never understand is Anyone "Screwing Around" with anything other than
R-12 (???)

Always TOO MUCH EFFORT and EXPENSE,With TOO LITTLE "Angel's Breath".

Is there a subset of Homo Sapiens that "Missed The Boat" on the Directive:
"Re-Inventing ANY PROCESS that works Excellently "AS IS", is pretty much
Proof of Darwin Award Status for your heirs [NONE]."

sjh · #34 08-12-2011, 08:48 AM

Prior threads have pretty well covered these debates.

Many raise the flammability issue which always seemed suspect to me given that CFC's are as or more flammable and much more toxic (at least R-134a).

O-ring deterioration is mentioned but the two A/C techs who do this have not had problems with that.

It is illegal. If something happened there would be big liability issues.

And the two most senior A/C men here (as best I can discern) have pretty strongly expressed their disapproval.

That said, from what I hear, R-134a is going to become very expensive and more and more unavailable.

A case (12 cans) of Es-12a is $55 (including shipping), when done correctly it works well, and, when done correctly it places less strain on the A/C components than R-134a.

Just don't follow the OP's procedure.

And don't think I'm recommending, just factual.

strelnik · #35 08-12-2011, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airedale2

Correction, 29inhg for vacuum. Sorry, i was thinking blood pressures.

When you complete your training, I should hire you to redo my air conditioning in the 240D and check out W126.

Can't seem to find anyone available to do that.

The 126 needs a vacuum diagram and some vacuum checking too, just have not had the time as I build my enclave-man cave. Got to do all the essentials on that before winter.

edge · #36 07-05-2012, 04:43 PM

You guys who are using ES-12a, the company says not to vacuum the sytem before you add their refrigerant because it was behave like an overcharge system and be ineffective....are you guys doing this?

JamesDean · #37 07-15-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edge

You guys who are using ES-12a, the company says not to vacuum the sytem before you add their refrigerant because it was behave like an overcharge system and be ineffective....are you guys doing this?

When I charged two of my cars with it.. I did not vacuum them out.

I know ES has one thats meant to be used in a vacuum.. I think they call it ES-12 Industrial. I thought about getting some if I ever got a vacuum system of some sort.

My only problem I'm having with the ES-12 stuff (and to some extent R12) is poor cooling at idle temperatures. I'm not sure if that caused by the ES-12 stuff, inadequate charge, bad compressor, poor a/c design.. etc...

JHZR2 · #38 07-08-2013, 03:02 PM

Bumping this up.

My 240D was out this weekend, and in the heat it just couldnt keep up. We were HOT in the car, with 94F outside. The AC compressor comes on, I hear sound from the expansion valve continuously, but it just wasnt cooling enough... So it is in the shop getting looked over for leaks and then a fresh shot of R-12.

My 300CD has sat for nearly two years now unfortunately... Love that car, and want to get it rolling again, nothing wrong with it, just want to fix the other window regulator and a door seal - nothing that stops me from driving it... Except that the AC isnt coming on. Not sure if it might be an ACC issue... need to get gauges on it, but if not, was kind of toying with the idea of trying this in there. Granted the car has only leaked out from non-use, as in the years of running it, the R-12 always stayed in.

But are those who have been using it, still using it? Any issues? Any component failures? Love the concept of self-servicability and not having quite the same inconvenience if/when recharge is needed. Granted my cars are not stored in airtight garages, nor am I reliant upon them.

Just an interesting refrigerant system that may need to be considered at some point if R12 goes away as shops dont want to have to carry three different refrigerants...

JamesDean · #39 07-08-2013, 03:14 PM

I still use it. I haven't had any problems with components or anything of that nature.

Its in my 190E and my dads 300SD. The only real problem I have are poor cooling at low RPM/speeds. Once you pick up to 40mph it does well. I'm on the turnpike or a freeway 99% of the time so I'm always 40 mph +.

My friend is going to use the industrial variant in his 560SEL and his mom 420SEL so well see how those work. They are supposed to get colder than the normal ES-12A stuff.

mach4 · #40 07-08-2013, 03:37 PM

I used it and am so far quite happy.

JHZR2 · #41 07-08-2013, 03:50 PM

Ugh my normal shop is out of R-12 and their distributor sold their last bottle a week ago. Ive called 10 other places and NOBODY is touching R-12, nor can they make any recommendations on who might still be servicing R-12 systems.

Wondering if it is sensible to do a 134a conversion, not as a sham retrofit but as the basis to transition over legally if/when it leaks out. Ive not touched the R12 system in my 240 for over two years, and the car sits for months, which is why it has leaked out, Im sure...

Doktor Bert · #42 07-08-2013, 05:01 PM

I would be afraid of that refrigerant, although 40°F is good on a 100°F day. I believe in keeping R12 systems all R12. When I did my W116, after my son crashed in in April 2006, I just bought 2 twelve ounce cans of R12 off E-bay for @24.95 each...

JHZR2 · #43 07-08-2013, 05:53 PM

Too bad no shops around here carry R-12 anymore.

47dodge · #44 07-08-2013, 06:46 PM

the reason for other then r 12 is availability and price. r12 is going the way of the dinosaur. Enviro-safe works just as well, been using it for years. times change, are we fools if we don't learn and change as needed?

Doktor Bert · #45 07-08-2013, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 47dodge

the reason for other then r 12 is availability and price. r12 is going the way of the dinosaur. Enviro-safe works just as well, been using it for years. times change, are we fools if we don't learn and change as needed?

Not exactly. To blindly follow trends is never a good thing.