Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JamesDean · #1 07-15-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edge

You guys who are using ES-12a, the company says not to vacuum the sytem before you add their refrigerant because it was behave like an overcharge system and be ineffective....are you guys doing this?

When I charged two of my cars with it.. I did not vacuum them out.

I know ES has one thats meant to be used in a vacuum.. I think they call it ES-12 Industrial. I thought about getting some if I ever got a vacuum system of some sort.

My only problem I'm having with the ES-12 stuff (and to some extent R12) is poor cooling at idle temperatures. I'm not sure if that caused by the ES-12 stuff, inadequate charge, bad compressor, poor a/c design.. etc...

JHZR2 · #2 07-08-2013, 03:02 PM

Bumping this up.

My 240D was out this weekend, and in the heat it just couldnt keep up. We were HOT in the car, with 94F outside. The AC compressor comes on, I hear sound from the expansion valve continuously, but it just wasnt cooling enough... So it is in the shop getting looked over for leaks and then a fresh shot of R-12.

My 300CD has sat for nearly two years now unfortunately... Love that car, and want to get it rolling again, nothing wrong with it, just want to fix the other window regulator and a door seal - nothing that stops me from driving it... Except that the AC isnt coming on. Not sure if it might be an ACC issue... need to get gauges on it, but if not, was kind of toying with the idea of trying this in there. Granted the car has only leaked out from non-use, as in the years of running it, the R-12 always stayed in.

But are those who have been using it, still using it? Any issues? Any component failures? Love the concept of self-servicability and not having quite the same inconvenience if/when recharge is needed. Granted my cars are not stored in airtight garages, nor am I reliant upon them.

Just an interesting refrigerant system that may need to be considered at some point if R12 goes away as shops dont want to have to carry three different refrigerants...

JamesDean · #3 07-08-2013, 03:14 PM

I still use it. I haven't had any problems with components or anything of that nature.

Its in my 190E and my dads 300SD. The only real problem I have are poor cooling at low RPM/speeds. Once you pick up to 40mph it does well. I'm on the turnpike or a freeway 99% of the time so I'm always 40 mph +.

My friend is going to use the industrial variant in his 560SEL and his mom 420SEL so well see how those work. They are supposed to get colder than the normal ES-12A stuff.

mach4 · #4 07-08-2013, 03:37 PM

I used it and am so far quite happy.

JHZR2 · #5 07-08-2013, 03:50 PM

Ugh my normal shop is out of R-12 and their distributor sold their last bottle a week ago. Ive called 10 other places and NOBODY is touching R-12, nor can they make any recommendations on who might still be servicing R-12 systems.

Wondering if it is sensible to do a 134a conversion, not as a sham retrofit but as the basis to transition over legally if/when it leaks out. Ive not touched the R12 system in my 240 for over two years, and the car sits for months, which is why it has leaked out, Im sure...

Doktor Bert · #6 07-08-2013, 05:01 PM

I would be afraid of that refrigerant, although 40°F is good on a 100°F day. I believe in keeping R12 systems all R12. When I did my W116, after my son crashed in in April 2006, I just bought 2 twelve ounce cans of R12 off E-bay for @24.95 each...

JHZR2 · #7 07-08-2013, 05:53 PM

Too bad no shops around here carry R-12 anymore.

47dodge · #8 07-08-2013, 06:46 PM

the reason for other then r 12 is availability and price. r12 is going the way of the dinosaur. Enviro-safe works just as well, been using it for years. times change, are we fools if we don't learn and change as needed?

Doktor Bert · #9 07-08-2013, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 47dodge

the reason for other then r 12 is availability and price. r12 is going the way of the dinosaur. Enviro-safe works just as well, been using it for years. times change, are we fools if we don't learn and change as needed?

Not exactly. To blindly follow trends is never a good thing.

Doktor Bert · #10 07-08-2013, 07:38 PM

Let's be honest. The real reason R-12 was 'outlawed' was the Dupont patent on R12 refrigerant was to expire in 1996. DuPont actually lobbied the EPA to switch to a 'safer' alternative (R134a) that they held the patent to.

Interestingly, Dupont admin issued a memo in 1996 that directed the production of 750 million TONS of R12 for "tax purposes" before ceasing production. R-12 is still in production in other countries.

In fact, the European Union is investigating Honeywell and DuPont because they also hold the exclusive physical and intellectual patent rights to the new HO1234yf refrigerant.

mach4 · #11 07-08-2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doktor Bert

Let's be honest. The real reason R-12 was 'outlawed' was the Dupont patent on R12 refrigerant was to expire in 1996. DuPont actually lobbied the EPA to switch to a 'safer' alternative (R134a) that they held the patent to.

Interestingly, Dupont admin issued a memo in 1996 that directed the production of 750 million TONS of R12 for "tax purposes" before ceasing production. R-12 is still in production in other countries.

In fact, the European Union is investigating Honeywell and DuPont because they also hold the exclusive physical and intellectual patent rights to the new HO1234yf refrigerant.

Can't patent propane - which is good enough for me!

And the only reason you can't legally vent R134a (from a refrigeration system) is the refrigeration lobby.

Doktor Bert · #12 07-08-2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach4

Can't patent propane - which is good enough for me!

This is true...

Doktor Bert · #13 07-08-2013, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airedale2

Vacuumed my ac system on my 300d today. The r134 was putting such a strain on my engine, my mpg were suffering. So i replaced the r134 with the propane mixture, and i have 40 degrees at the vent. I need to play with it some more, i may have it a little overcharged, but i will wait till it hits 100 again to make final adjustment. No more strain on the compressor or engine like before. Please spare me the fire hazard excuse. Im a fireman in dallas and have seen lots of car fires/houses. Never once saw a problem with pressurized gases. Just gasoline. I start ac school this semester and plan to make propane conversions my specialty. Probably have to go to europe/canada for hydrocarbon specialization classes/cert.

I would like to see high/low side pressures/vent temps at idle and 2000 rpm...

Doktor Bert · #14 07-08-2013, 08:07 PM

As with any refrigerant, I charge with 75% of the system's rated capacity and check vent temps with a dyno fan on the condensor (to mimic road speed) and I charge for vent temps and pressures, FWIW

Doktor Bert · #15 07-08-2013, 08:14 PM

My W116 with 9 blade fan and correctly functioning electric (supplemental) fan will knock our 32°F in the vent at 70 mph at 105°F ambient 25% humidity and 48°-52°F in the vents at idle in the drive through with a non worn-out fan clutch.

The 2000 Ford truck I recently did with R-134a ran a very cold 27°F in the vent @ 2000 rpm in 100°F ambient 25% humidity, but that was with a custom sized orifice tube (.052") and compressor cyclic rates with an 11 blade engine driven fan.

Note - Ford's have huge evaporators and condensors, when compared to other vehicles, so this kind of A/C performance is hard to mimic on non-Fords.

My 2001 Mustang is a stock R-134a system running a custom .049" orifice tube and revised compressor cyclic rates. It yields vent temps that will dip to 25°F on the road and 37°F at idle on a 105°F 30% humidity day.

IIRC, A/C pressures dip to 22-24 psi (low) and rise to 310-315 psi (Hi) on the Mustang.

I never see over 340-345 psi on a properly functioning R134 system with adequate airflow...