Broke Injection pump Timing Device BOLT!!!
 

Guys, I'm in a serious state of hurt. Replaced the number one delivery valve crush washer last night at aroud 11 PM and really- I mean REALLY - f..ked up. I put the delivery valve and holder in upside down. :eek:

I know I deserve every admonition and I-told-you-so, but right now I need some help. I cranked it a lot last night before I gave up, and then around 2AM while trying to go to sleep, I realized what I did wrong. I put everything back the way it should be, with a new crush washer, and it still wouldn't start. Cracked the injection lines - no fuel.

I thought I must have destroyed the IP, but the problem may be before the fuel even gets to the IP. I loosened the line from the lift pump to the big (secondary?) fuel filter, and when using the hand pump, fuel comes flying out. When cranking the engine - no fuel at all, so it sounds like I ruined the lift pump (at least). I'm probably going to take the lift pump off in a few minutes, but would really appreciate some advice.

I think I finally did it this time. :(

I don't believe that you've provided the complete story, and, therefore, it won't be possible to help you.

Here is why:

If you screwed up #1, the engine would start and run on the other four........it would just run badly.

The failure to start has nothing to do with #1, so, the need for more information is mandatory.

It takes around 12 seconds for fuel too get up to the injectors, which does seem like an eternity sometimes, are you sure you cranked it long enough? Lift pumps usually last the life of the car then some.

Brian,

I hope you're right. Here's everything else I did last night. It ran fine beforehand.

I changed the secondary fuel filter.

I pulled all of the injectors and cleaned the nozzles.

And here's what I think you're driving at:

I did a compression check on cylinder number one to confirm the results I got a couple of weeks ago. It was still low, so I poured some oil (about a quarter ounce) into the injector hole to see if the compression improved. I also sprayed some brake cleaner into the prechambers to clean them out. I must have overdone it, and didn't wait long enough for it to evaporate. I suspect that there must have been fluid in the cylinders when I tried to crank it, and that I may have blown out the diaphram in the lift pump.:confused:

I pulled the lift pump, but don't know where the diaphram is. I need to take a step back before I make it worse.

I know I messed up, and am, to be perfectly honest, embarassed. I can understand people saying to themselves, "The idiot did it to himself, and now he has to suffer the consequences." I can only ask for mercy, and assure you and everyone else I learned my lesson -which I'm afraid will be an expensive one. Hopefully, the next guy can learn from my mistakes.

Thanks

Edit: I guess there's no diaphram. I'm just clueless.

No diaphram
 

There's no diaphram in the lift pump, it's a piston. If you remove the 30mm (maybe 32?) nut on the front of pump you will see the spring and piston behind it. If you are going to take it apart be careful because that spring is under some pressure. I seriously doubt you broke the lift pump by spraying stuff in your cylinders and that there is probably no reason to take it apart.

Try putting it all back together and pump the primer until you hear the relief valve operating and fuel is flowing through the return line. If your system has an empty secondary filter or lines full of air this may be 50 or more strokes on the primer. Then crack all the injector lines and crank the engine until you see fuel coming out the lines. Air in the injection system can make it seem like the whole thing just died but just takes some purging.

Fuel flow
 

Quick test is disconnect cigar return line and let it discharge into a 2 litter coke bottle to watch amount of fuel returning while cranking....
If fuel is flowing then lift pump is pumping....

Like the previous post said...there is no diaphragm....just an O-ring around the piston push rod....between the piston and roller assy...

Did you pre-fill the canister fuel filter before replacing it?

If not, remove it and do so, and then start priming it again.

That's my suspicion, as well.

An empty secondary filter will cause the IP to fill with air and it'll become next to impossible to start.

If this occurred, the secondary must be filled and the primer pump must be operated for about 100 strokes.

Then, all five injection lines should be cracked and the vehicle cranked with right foot planted until fuel dribbles out of the hard lines.

Tighten all five hard line nuts and start the engine.

I only had the secondary half filled. I did fill it completely after it failed to start, but air must have got in the system before I did.

When I tried to start it last night, it did sound like it tried to start, but it never did. Today, nothing.

I put the lift pump back on, and pumped it one hell of a lot. I heard air hissing, and fuel was hitting the floor, but no matter how much i crank the engine, nothing is coming out of the IP. I'm not sure where the fuel is coming out of, but that's happened everytime I've used the pump before, so I suspect it's normal.

Hopefully, it's just air in the system, and that cranking will eventually clear it. I'm trying to go easy on the starter, and not crank it too long so it doesn't overheat, but pretty soon my battery will give out. If I can get this fixed by only buying a battery charger, I'll consider myself VERY lucky.

Thanks everyone, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

Do I remember correctly that someone discovered that clamping off the return line primed the system faster?

Your primer pump is bad.
 

If fuel leaks when using your primer pump then it is shot. What can happen then is that the lift pump will suck air via the leaky primer pump. Make sure you have it all the way tightened down to seal it off.

While waiting for the starter to cool off, here's an update:

Fuel comes out ot the cigar hose when using the hand pump, but not while cranking. This is similar to what lead me to believe it was the lift pump initially.

Keep cranking?

When I put my lift pump back on, I reverted to the Monark pump that was on the car when I bought it. It leaks when pumping, but seals up good when I tighten it down. I changed it to rule out the possibility of it being the hand pump I got from the pick and pull a few weeks ago. I'll probably switch it back, since it doesn't leak at all.

Please explain in more detail. Nothing is coming out of WHERE on the IP? Are the injector hard lines open?

fuel issues
 

Let the lift pump suck from a fresh bottle of diesel as a temporary supply to eliminate fuel tank screen restriction.....put new hoses on everything fuel related....about $1.00 a foot at hardware store...get tight fit with clamps on all suction side hoses....just takes a small air leak to cause trouble...

Yes. they're open at the injectors. When I've pulled the injectors before, I knew that the lines could have air trapped in them, so I loosened them one at a time with the car running to let the air escape. When I did that, fuel would spray out the line nuts and drip down the injectors. Now, nothing is coming out at all.

It's going to take a bit of cranking........depending on how long your cranked it with air in the secondary.

I have noticed that even though I use the hand pump until there are no bubbles, a bubble will rise in the line from the IP back to the secondary after a few minutes. Will intermittent hand pumping be better than cranking until the bubble stops appearing, or will only cranking get the air out of the IP?

Thanks

Still no luck, but I borrowed my neighbor's battery charger, so I can crank until my starter gives out.

I'm getting pretty discouraged, so I think I'll just let the battery charge a while and try later. I thawed a turkey prior to a late Thanksgiving invitation, so I'm cooking it today. 16 pounds, and I and my dogs :o are the only one's around to eat it. I may be walking, but at least I won't be hungry.

Any additional suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Ip
 

Put you another see through filter on the output line so you can see the return flow...just stick a piece of rubber line on there to replace the cigar hose while testing as a diagnostic measure....at least you will know if the lift pump is pushing fuel while cranking.......might try hand pumping while cranking if you can get somebody to help.....

Pumping of the primer is advantageous anytime there is air on the primary side of the system. However, once air is past the point of the return lines, only cranking can get it out.

So, in answer to your question........yes, intermittent hand pumping will be valuable in such a situation.

I tried it, but it doesn't look like any fuel is passing through while cranking.:confused:

Lift pump
 

Your very 1rst post states that you suspect no lift pump operation....

I am going back to that to start over.....so we can sequence through this to find a good spot...

Another good idea is to use temporary clear line on everthing for troubleshooting to watch the flow......

1....let the input to the lift pump suck from a small bottle of diesel resting in the fender well area....make sure the hose going to the pump is tight & stays submerged...

2....Disconnect fuel line from filter and let it empty into another container or the same for the supply hose....

3....Hand pump & watch the flow.......

4.....Crank engine and observe the flow.....

5.....Compare the two flows....the hand pump will put out more than the lift pump....but not much more .....

6....Post back with what you find.......I am curious about this...

Oh man, what a day.:(

I'll try the fuel supply in the engine bay test tomorrow, I'm beat for tonight. I've also got some clear line and clamps, so I'll try that too.

If in fact the pump is bad, I'll probably head to the pick and pull to get a used one. I've got an electric scooter that should just make it there and back.

As of now, it does seem as though something's wrong with the pump, but I'm confused about a couple things:

How could I have broken the pump? There aren't too many things that can break, and if something does break, I would have thought the hand pump wouldn't work either. The hand pump wouldn't work if the valves were broken, correct? I assume the piston in the pump performs the same function as the hand pump, and when I had it open today, everything looked ok. It wasn't seized or scored.

Is it possible that the cam in the IP is failing to actuate the piston? Is there any way to test that other than taking the pump off and looking or feeling inside the IP?

Finally (for now), could a faulty shutoff valve be involved? I disconnected the vaccum from it, and checked the linkage, but is it possible for whatever the valve "shuts off" to become stuck?

Thanks for the help. Right now, I need all the help and support I can get.

Believe me air can take forever.Thats why I added a cheap electric fuel pump.

Fuel Problems
 

Lift pump works regardless of fuel shutoff valve....
Vacuum valve is fuel element shutoff..(Rack plunger rotation)
Hand pump will work if IP cam not turning
Hand pump proper function does indicate the pump check valves are ok....but lift pump piston action would not be verified....
Do you know your IP cam is turning...?...
If you have the lift pump off...
you can see the cam through the 32mm hole in side of IP...
Crank engine while observing IP lift pump cam lobe...may have to use a mirrror and light for better viewing.....also get some paper towels for the engine oil that comes out....

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth here too! Sometimes if your lift pump is a bit tired it does need to be primed when system full of air and your tank low. Some of these points have already been raised.

Before you start cranking:
1) Remove filter and fill to top - replace.
2) Remove hose from tank pipe together with pre-filter. Fill that hose and the pre-filt with fuel (small funel?) and give a few strokes of pump to fill to fill pipe from lift pump to main filt. Top up again and connect back to tank supply pipe.
3)Start hand pumping. It can take at least 5 min pumping! After a couple of mins you should hear bubbling in tank (remove cap) - Keep going until it stops and you hear relief ball valve behind Fuel Pump.
4)As Brian said just crack open lines at injectors and crank at full throttle untill fuel at injectors - re-tighten.
5)Your ready to start. Glow and crank with full throttle (you must purge air from injectors too) until it fires reduce to half throttle - keep cranking max 30 secs. and then repeat.

Oh my!
 

Well, my worst fears are realized - the IP isn't turning.

Confirmed that no fuel was being pumped while cranking, so I took off the fuel pump again. I had my neighbor crank the engine, and the cams in the IP didn't move.

I'm soooooooooooo bummed. What should I do next? New IP?

Thanks

there was just a thread about this within the last month. The IP timing gear bolt was stripped, and bare.

there ya go

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/228906-300sd-woes-injection-pump-timing-device-2.html?highlight=stripped

What are the odds of two of these failures occurring so close together on the forum? I believe in both instances the owners had been working on the IP prior to failure. Is there a connection?

IP shaft
 

Could be just the keys sheared ....If you are lucky.....Pull the vac pump and look in there....get a service manual and proceed...

I am still curious what could have happened to impede IP cam rotation during your repairs....unless you jammed the #1 plunger with the backwards delivery valve install somehow....

you might be on to something....

although the other Poster had a vacpump failure that destroyed his bolt.

why didnt the keys fail on his first?

Well, after reading the threads, I think my upside down delivery valve probably did the trick, but I'm not sure.

Here's where I'm at:

1 Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing. I was proud of myself when I did my first valve adjustment, so that along with the screwup mentioned above, should give you some idea of my level of expertise, or lack thereof.

2 Unfortunately, I'm also broke, as a result of another bonehead manoeuvre that I wont bore you with.

3 This is my only car. I have a scooter that's good for going to McDonald's down the street, but I can't carry groceries or drive at night, so getting to work and back is going to be difficult. I need to get this fixed, and time is a luxury I don't have.

So, I'm left with two unappealing choices: Perform a job that I probably can't do, without having a method to pick up parts; or pay somebody to do the job using money I don't have. Ugh.

As a guesstimate, how much should I expect the local indy to charge for a job like this, going from a best-case scenario of it being broken woodruff keys; to a worst-case of who knows what?

Damn.........

IP Woes
 

Are you certain the cam is not turning....?...The fuel pump lobe is the narrrow one between two of the wider plunger roller lobes.....

If you are sure and broke.... you have nothing to lose by digging further.....pull the vac pump 6-(5mm) allen hex bolts..,see what is there....some models have a reverse thread bolt holding on the timing device...leave that for now if all looks ok....

Pull #1 element again and inspect for damage....Post back along the way like you have been doing and you should find plenty of help here....

I say to do the above if you are broke and eventually want to repair this vehicle for the least amount of $$$$

It will help if you follow the forum members advice without jumping ahead which is always tempting.....but this area should be approached step by step.....
You could be lucky and just have some minor parts needed or you may need another IP and or timing device + chain and other parts....
no way to know until you start digging......no easy quick solution at this point unless I have missed something....
You seem to have the willingness and mechanical apptitude to do this ...just need to approach it in small steps.....no rush now.....

Thanks for the support Yellit. I appreciate it.

The cam isn't turning. The lobes didn't move while my neighbor cranked the engine. The cam shaft does move though, but not the cam in the IP.

I'll probably be less discouraged in an hour or two, and will work on pulling the vacuum pump. One thing I'm concerned about is clearance. Looking at my Haynes and FSM, everything looks pretty accessible with the engine on a stand - inside the engine bay is another story. Do you think I'll need to pull the radiator and fan, and / or remove the belts?

As far as my non-technical issues, I'm thinking I'll need to find alternative transportation, which isn't a bad idea in any case. Rushing to get things done has always been a problem with this being my only ride. I did a quick check of Craig's list, and there's a 1981 240D in the area for 1,200. If I can get something that runs for less than a grand I'll probably go for it. I'm considering hitting my parents up for a loan against my upcoming tax refund check. I hate to do that, but I'm desperate.

Thanks to everyone for their help so far, and even more so for their help in the upcoming days and weeks. I'll probably start a new thread when I start tearing into the engine, since this one has been mostly diagnostics and my sob stories.

Theo

I've removed the vacuum pump on a 77 300d after only removing the fan shroud. It was easy. Other forum members have reported having to remove additional parts to get to the vacuum pump. I don't know why because it was a simple job on the 77.
In my experience, if money is tight, two inexpensive old cars are a better choice than one moderately priced vehicle because you have a back up to drive.

I think it's better to keep all the goings on in one thread so people can follow the full sequence of events that led to the problem and the various diagnostics steps necessary for solution.

Ip
 

I think I pulled my vac pump with the radiator already out....It is easy to remove radiator...just makes some mess even after draining....
It may be possible to R&R Vac pump with radiator in.... just easier if it is out....
You may notice the vac pump trying to push itself off the block as you remove the screws...this is ok...just the spring pressure of the vac pump roller assy....if it is up on one of the lobes
Just look in there with a flashlight before anything else to check condition of timing device,chain and such....
There are some DIY links with pics on the forum resources tab...for reference.....If you get discouraged...stop and come back to it later after thinking about it.....or after a sleep cycle....
These beasts keep calling us back no matter how bleak the prospect....like a dog returning to its vomit......
I cannot tell you how many times I have sat down and almost started weeping with despair....but I keep coming back.....It is a true sickness these diesel things cast upon us......

Started to take the vacuum pump off, and saw a large crack in the housing. Took it off all the way, and there was a half a bolt and large washer sitting inside. There was also pretty big gash on the inside of the housing, but no shrapnel. Other than half a bolt in the center, the timing device didn't show any damage that I could see. I assume I need to get the remainder of the bolt out next, but I'll await some feedback before I proceed. Thanks.

Edit: I didn't really notice it on the car, but looking at the pics, I see RUST on the timing device! That can't be good. :( It doesn't have oil in the coolant, and the coolant doesn't disappear, but water must have gotten in there somehow. I noticed there's no gasket for the vacuum pump, and I do have a habit of hosing off my engine to clean it. Hopefully that's where it came from.

IP woes
 

Nice Job...looks like you found something important here...with luck you may just have to get the intermediate shaft...looks like your wobble plate is not chewed up....the bit of rust is ok for now....

Make sure you engine is lined up at #1 TDC compression stroke before removing anything else...
I would remove the #1 IP element innards you had accidentally reversed to check for any kind of damage to the parts....
Need to make sure the IP is not jammed....need to figure out what caused that bolt to twist off....
It may be wise to remove IP for a closer look ....

Be sure to mark the chain link locations on the timing device without turning engine so timing device can go back in with proper sproket/chain index...

Maybe some other members can jump in here for group thinking on this.....

I have 2 engines out on the floor (240Ds) if you need me to look at items for comparisons during the autopsy......

There is a glimmer of hope here that things may not be as bad as first thought....but I always prepare for the worst so I cannot get
dissapointed.....

Lucky you caught that. Be sure and check the lateral play of the timing device which caused a VP to get destroyed in a 616 of mine. There is a brass bushing on the intermediate shaft which wares causing the timing device to slam back and forth on the shaft which trashes the VP. Mine had 2.5mm of play, dont know what its spoz too be but that was too much.

I'm a little confused.

According to the FSM, http://www.fgsswitch.com/host/07_1-240.pdf

...

8 Remove chain tensioner
9 Unscrew hex head bolts, withdraw bearing pin and then remove guide rail

The Haynes manual mentions nothing about this, saying to just use some screwdrivers between the timing device and the chain. Also, the Haynes says push the intermediate shaft through the rear of the housing, which assumes the IP is already removed.

Do the head and IP need to be removed in order to get this apart? I don't have the tools or expertise to remove the head, and probably not the IP either. I can follow instructions pretty well when I'm paying attention :o, but these instructions seem a little vague.

Additionally, the FSM and the pictures in the Haynes show a hollow bolt with a nut on it, where mine was just a solid bolt. The bolt is hollow in order to allow oil into the vacuum pump, so I don't know if mine is jury-rigged or not.

Also, am I going to need to remove the remainder of the bolt before I can remove the timing device, or is it just a free spinning axis, where the bolt head only prevents the device from moving forward?

Do you think it would be a good idea to head to the pick and pull and "practice" while I'm pulling parts? I don't want to mess it up any more than I already have, so any additional details are appreciated.

Timing device removal
 

Need to follow the FSM on this part of the adventure...the Haynes book also has some info on this....head does not need to come off...remove IP last if needed....
IP pulls back after removing the flange bolts and rear bolts by oil filter....and other attachments to IP...lines,linkage,etc...
Mark the IP flange also ....
Will have to get chain slack to remove Timing device...
To reduce extra work later...keep chain tension on the (Crankshaft gear)
Fix the chain to the cam gear or mark very well which links are indexed to which teeth before removing cam gear for slack....
Probably best to remove chain tensioner for enough slack....just two bolts....
The chain will have to have enough slack to remove the timing device ....mark those chain/teeth indexes also

Do all this without letting the chain get slack on the crank gear.....
If you do lose the crank/cam/TD/IP timing relationships...it is not the end of the world...You will just going to do the setup which is a good learning procedure itself.....
I usually end up doing things extra anyway for the experience...I enjoy my failures......great learning tools......

Yellit, it looks like you we're reading my mind and posted at the same time as I.

Is the chain tensioner accessible from outside the case? I think it must be under my intake and turbo if it is.

Timing device removal
 

If you have the Valve cover off you can see it below the cam gear to the left....spring loaded shaft pushing the tension block that will come out also.......may have to pull thermostat housing to access....
It is removed by 2 bolts on the outside case....

Timing device removal
 

The chain guide rail next to the tensioner comes off by removing those pins....
You will have to make a puller using a bolt, sockets and washers to remove the little pins....
If I remember right the lower one is accessed through a groove in the balancer assy...
I can check my engines location of those if you get stuck....

Progress - but stuck at last step
 

Can't get the timing device out. I performed every step in the FSM through step 11, but now I'm stuck.

I don't think it's the chain, but at the 5 o'clock position, it seems as though there's something in the housing that's preventing the chain from completely escaping the teeth. But again, I don't think that's the problem. There's about 1/4 inch where the device can move forward and back, and even when pulled fully forward, there's still a gap between the chain and the housing.

Edit: I guess the thing at 5 o'clock is a guide rail, and I forgot to remove that pin.

I'm still unclear what the remaing portion of the broken bolt is attached to. If it's not attached to the device itself, I would think the device should pull right out. If it's attached to the device AND anything else, the bolt piece is probably what holding it up. Looking at the diagram, I would assume that the bolt is in the bushing only, and if so, I don't know why the timing device can't come out.

Thanks

Timing device removal
 

Did your FSM mention the little hold down bolt at about where you describe...?...On the outer case...I forgot about that.....It has to come out to let the chain fall away from that area....sorry about that.......
Always good to post when you hit a snag.....smart move....
But sounds like you are making good progress...

Yeah, I remembered the retaining screw after 15 minutes of frustration, but I forgot about the guide rail pin (93 in the FSM) for an hour. I got the upper pin (89) on the first try. :o

The lower pin is already a pain. The AC compressor is in front of it, so I can't get my improvised puller in there. I came back to the forum to look up how to loosen the AC in order to provide clearance. It isn't obvious to me just by eyeballing it.

Thanks a lot

Timing device removal
 

Leave the hoses attached if the system is charged....If that is the GM big round (R5) compressor I believe ...there are three bolts with sleeves that can come loose to swing it out of the way... or you may can unbolt the bracket that holds that whole mess to the block.....I have mine off now...got a new compressor ready to go back on....