Originally Posted by husk (Post 2057765)

The untested emission control systems is not that complicated. There is little that can go wrong.

You can run your 606 without a battery for thousands of miles, try that on a gas car.

Originally Posted by TimFreeh (Post 2057793)

I wonder if the engineers in 1986 thought the same thing about that new fangled "trap-oxidizer" they decided to use in the USA for the OM603 engine? That one worked out very well don't you think? And I've got news for you the Bluetec system is about 3 orders of magnitude more complex than than any of their earlier attempts at catalyst systems.

As far as the OM606 claim goes... I don't think so. I've pulled the fuse for the ECM on my 98 E300D when the engine is running - it shuts down instantly and won't re-start until the fuse is replaced.

Originally Posted by TimFreeh (Post 2057793)

I wonder if the engineers in 1986 thought the same thing about that new fangled "trap-oxidizer" they decided to use in the USA for the OM603 engine? That one worked out very well don't you think? And I've got news for you the Bluetec system is about 3 orders of magnitude more complex than than any of their earlier attempts at catalyst systems.

As far as the OM606 claim goes... I don't think so. I've pulled the fuse for the ECM on my 98 E300D when the engine is running - it shuts down instantly and won't re-start until the fuse is replaced.

Originally Posted by nhdoc (Post 2057642)

I knew that my post would stir up a hornet's nest on this board :D

What I will concede is that the decision to go diesel is not based upon practicality today but still is appealing for other reasons. There is no economic reason to choose a used CDI over its used gas counterpart, period. The cars are basically identical otherwise and to argue the CDI is somehow less complex than the gas engine is truly showing one's ignorance of the CDI design. You could say that you might save 10% overall on fuel costs but for the average (15K miles per year) driver that would amount to about $10-$20 a month - hardly something that should come into the equation for buying a Mercedes-Benz.

Add to this argument the present somewhat untested emissions controls of the current diesel models (4 separate systems which all have to work perfectly) and the diesel is easily more finicky and complex that the gas model. This makes the choice of buying a new diesel over a new gasser less of a "no brainer" too.

People think I am some newbie to the diesel world because of my recent posts critical of the practicality of owning one. I learned to drive on a '74 240D in the late 70s and have been an advocate of diesels since then, but today, conditions have changed and unless you are willing to admit that *maybe* the decision to go diesel is impractical you are probably just fooling yourself.

OK, here's my last thoughts on this subject. My reason for continuing to drive a diesel is not because of economy, longevity or ease of maintenance. It is because in the early 1970s when there were gas lines at every station the truck stops always had plenty of diesel. My dad said "there will always be diesel because the military and commerce depends on it - if trucks can't get to the stores the whole economy implodes". That still holds true today. In fact, last summer when the refineries were having their problems meeting demands in the south for gas there was always diesel available. So, I guess I can admit there is one practical reason for owning a diesel powered car - in the event of another gas shortage I think the odds are pretty good that diesel will still be plentiful. That's my reason for owning one - it is the peace of mind of knowing I am not 100% dependent on gasoline. Not the greatest reason in the world but a good one for me.

Originally Posted by husk (Post 2057888)

I have run my 606 390 miles with no battery and it was going strong. I kept the motor running as I filled diesel etc. Pulling a fuse is different than running without a battery.

Originally Posted by TimFreeh (Post 2057895)

The OM606 engine in your 95 still uses a basically mechanical injection pump, the pump in your 99 OM606 is totally controlled by a computer - pull the fuse that powers the ECM (or pull the battery) and the engine will instantly stop.

Originally Posted by nhdoc (Post 2057857)

Tim, Husk doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions, it is obvious he hasn't seen the articles about the new bluetec emissions controls systems nor has he tried to run a OM606 without electrical power. I surrender to him and won't reply further. I have learned the futility of trying to reason with people who don't know what they are talking about from 45 years of dealing with my mother. We say about her "she's always wrong but never in doubt". Husk and SkidRowJoe should form their own board, my mom would probably join it ;)

Originally Posted by nhdoc (Post 2057901)

Sorry Husk, I misunderstood your prior statement and thought you meant you could run the OM606 without electrical power. You can probably run the car without a battery, of course just about any car, gas or diesel can run without a battery as long as it has a good alternator. I've driven gas powered cars without batteries too and yes, they will run off the alternator.

As for the personal insults, all I said was you don't know what you are talking about...nothing personal, it's just to make a statement about "how simple" the emissions controls are in the bluetec system shows you haven't seen it. It is, by far, the most complex emissions system put into any car I have ever seen - to call it "simple" you must be aware of some that I don't know about.

Originally Posted by husk (Post 2057888)

...NHDOC...I own several gas and diesel Mercedes' including a 300SL Gullwing, I guess I have failed at life and don't know what I am talking about.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...b/IMG_2095.jpg

Originally Posted by husk (Post 2057913)

BLUETEC runs off technologies which have existed for a long time, filters, Catalysts etc. The only thing added is the exhaust treatment in the form of UREA injection. I am not sure what is so complex about the injection of UREA into the exhaust stream? I mean there is not much that can fail there?

Originally Posted by nhdoc (Post 2057928)

You're absolutely right, I stand corrected, here is how it works and it sure sounds like there's nothing that could possibly cause problems at all:

NAC+SCR
Exhaust leaves the engine and passes through a Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC), which reduces carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Next is the NOx Absorber Catalyst, or NAC, which removes and traps oxides of nitrogen (NOx is one of the chief elements in diesel pollution). During periods of lean operation (low fuel-to-air ratio) NOx is stored; under richer operating conditions (which can be created by manipulating the fuel injection) the NAC undergoes a regeneration process and releases ammonia into the exhaust. The ammonia is stored downstream in the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalyst which uses it to further reduce NOx.

In between the NAC and SCR catalysts is a particulate filter that traps particulate emissions (soot). As the particulate filter becomes full, the engine computer manipulates the fuel injection process to raise the exhaust gas temperature, which in turn burns off the particulates.

ADBLUE
The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Originally Posted by husk (Post 2057936)

YES SCR's have been around for a long time as well (at least 50 years I would Imagine) they are commonly used with scrubbers in power plants. You have particulate filters, O2 Catalysts, which have been around for a very long time and are pretty commonly used in vehicles. So tell me what specifically do you feel will be unreliable or could prove to be a problem? The ADBlue service intervals? Your statements really do not answer my question.....

Originally Posted by nhdoc (Post 2057946)

Just because something's "been around a long time" doesn't mean it will work in this application. Tell me how long have glow plugs been around, and, yet, they can't seem to make any strong enough to be reliably extracted from the heads of any Mercedes engine made in the past 15 years. I'll believe they can perfect this system when they prove to me they can get my glow plugs out without breaking off.