What Type, (Not Make) nozzles have you tried..??? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Alastair · #1 05-04-2009, 12:42 PM

As post heading says...

Interested in those used in OM.617 and 602/3 series engines...

Not interested in Make (Which in a perfect-world is irrelevant), Only the Type Numbers...

Personally I have used/tested the following an N/A OM.617-

DN O SD 1510
DN O SD 220
DN O SD 240 and /A
DN O SD 261
DN O SD 265

RDN 12 SDC 6862C (Lucas/Delphi)

Latest is-

DN O SD 327 (Bosch) Equiv- RDN O SDC 6863C. (Delphi)--Looking good so far...

Plan to test-

DNOSD 314

And some custom-specials made in Germany when I can afford them...

I only ever use BOSCH or DELPHI types, and not any of the micky-mouse boso monach types available etc, as there are just TOO MANY Variables and counterfeit types round

::matthew · #2 05-04-2009, 01:00 PM

what makes a monarch or bosio nozzle "mickey mouse"

Alastair · #3 05-04-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ::matthew

what makes a monarch or bosio nozzle "mickey mouse"

They are NOT O.E.M.

These makes are never used by Mercedes-Benz or any other vehicle-maker to my knowledge.--They are 'after-market' makes.

There are literally dozens of nozzle-makers supplying the repair sector, some are OK ish, some are downright crap. There are even rip-off Fake Bosch/Delphi nozzles around prolly made in China too, and are reasonably easy to spot.....

Vehicle makers buy the entire injection-system for each vehicle from Injection Equipment Makers like Bosch, Stanadyne, Diesel-Kiki Delphi, Lucas etc.
It would make No Sense for them to buy a pump from Bosch and an Injector Nozzle from monarch when Bosch worked with the vehicle-maker to devise/design the entire system for that particular application, and have designed suitable nozzle for That engine/car/trans combo-

-Who EVER heard of a Bosio or Monarch Injection-Pump on a vehicle!!.

I tried some spurious made nozzles,--more than once over the years--might even have been bosio--They were defo Italian, That I DO remember--They were crap, and I slung them back to the suppliers, and paid a little extra for a Proper make (Bosch).....

Never again. (I keep saying that, But it'll be a year or two before I try them again, as they are Just SO Cheap!...)

Always a Proper Make nozzle, Cant go wrong then, You Know its Correct and OEM.--IF its good enough for Mercedes-Benz, then its good enough for me

Especially considering its a fair bit of work to install them and set pressures correctly--You DONT want to do it twice!

Look at the various posts over the years concerning bosio nozzles lasting only a few thousand-miles before giving faults....

Anyway, This thread was looking at the Types and NOT the Makes of nozzle that have been used....

C Sean Watts · #4 05-05-2009, 03:38 PM

Monark was making diesel injectors when Bosch only did electrical parts. I cannot speak for Bosio but Monark supplies IPs for ships, buses, construction equipment and generators.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

They are NOT O.E.M.

These makes are never used by Mercedes-Benz or any other vehicle-maker to my knowledge.--They are 'after-market' makes.

There are literally dozens of nozzle-makers supplying the repair sector, some are OK ish, some are downright crap. There are even rip-off Fake Bosch/Delphi nozzles around prolly made in China too, and are reasonably easy to spot.....

Vehicle makers buy the entire injection-system for each vehicle from Injection Equipment Makers like Bosch, Stanadyne, Diesel-Kiki Delphi, Lucas etc.
It would make No Sense for them to buy a pump from Bosch and an Injector Nozzle from monarch when Bosch worked with the vehicle-maker to devise/design the entire system for that particular application, and have designed suitable nozzle for That engine/car/trans combo-

-Who EVER heard of a Bosio or Monarch Injection-Pump on a vehicle!!.

I tried some spurious made nozzles,--more than once over the years--might even have been bosio--They were defo Italian, That I DO remember--They were crap, and I slung them back to the suppliers, and paid a little extra for a Proper make (Bosch).....

Never again. (I keep saying that, But it'll be a year or two before I try them again, as they are Just SO Cheap!...)

Always a Proper Make nozzle, Cant go wrong then, You Know its Correct and OEM.--IF its good enough for Mercedes-Benz, then its good enough for me

Especially considering its a fair bit of work to install them and set pressures correctly--You DONT want to do it twice!

Look at the various posts over the years concerning bosio nozzles lasting only a few thousand-miles before giving faults....

Anyway, This thread was looking at the Types and NOT the Makes of nozzle that have been used....

Alastair · #5 05-06-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Sean Watts

Monark was making diesel injectors when Bosch only did electrical parts. I cannot speak for Bosio but Monark supplies IPs for ships, buses, construction equipment and generators.

The following is a quote from Monark Website....

MonarkDiesel GmbH & Co. KG was founded in Hamburg in 1951. We specialise in precision-made injection equipment and have been supplying several leading car and engine manufacturers for many decades. To meet the requirements of our customers and the market, our product range will be continually updated and extended.
Today MD is a modern enterprise which does the customer a service with qualified and experienced employees.

At LEAST 10 years earlier, during WWII, Bosch made the fuel injection-pumps for Messershmidt ME 109 and others and they looks suspiciously similar to the PES types we all know and love....

C Sean Watts · #6 05-07-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

The following is a quote from Monark Website....

MonarkDiesel GmbH & Co. KG was founded in Hamburg in 1951. We specialise in precision-made injection equipment and have been supplying several leading car and engine manufacturers for many decades. To meet the requirements of our customers and the market, our product range will be continually updated and extended.
Today MD is a modern enterprise which does the customer a service with qualified and experienced employees.

At LEAST 10 years earlier, during WWII, Bosch made the fuel injection-pumps for Messershmidt ME 109 and others and they looks suspiciously similar to the PES types we all know and love....

If we're NOT talking diesel injector pumps, Cadillac-Gauge had them for armor vehicles and tanks prior to the war. They were just too costly to make in mass numbers at the time.

But to answer your question from Wed. I read, learned and saw reams of information at the Magneti Marelli R&D and production facility in NC (USA.) They helped my Univ. SAE team (NCSU) with a one seater race car. We didn't win anything (lost a radiator and barely finished) but Carroll Shelby gave us an innovation award.

::matthew · #7 05-04-2009, 02:47 PM

so non-OEM equals mickey mouse?

I'm intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Alastair · #8 05-04-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ::matthew

so non-OEM equals mickey mouse?

I'm intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

How many times have you heard of non OEM parts causing issues/not lasting/breaking, or even not fitting correctly over the years??

Dont get me wrong, Not all Non OEM parts are rubbish, but some things shouldnt be left to chance....

Consider the extreme accuracy needed in Making an Injection Nozzle--Machining to within a Micron or so ...

You may well be happy to take the chance on a Non OEM nozzle, and may well have a good experience with them but I wouldn't personally take that chance...

pawoSD · #9 05-04-2009, 03:21 PM

I've used both Bosio and Monark Nozzles. Both work well, the Monark seem to give a smoother idle but less low end torque. (more like the OEM bosch ones)

Alastair · #10 05-04-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

I've used both Bosio and Monark Nozzles. Both work well, the Monark seem to give a smoother idle but less low end torque. (more like the OEM bosch ones)

Which in itself suggests that the monark are a closer facsimile to the original, and that the bosio are not....(Just why is it, that bosio recommend the same nozzle for a variety of engines, where Bosch had different models for each...!!??)

Side-cut Pintle-nozzles like these in the Pre-chamber are tailored to their use. Practically any nozzle of this type will Work in there, but have differing torque characteristics at different speeds....(And be a vast improvement over some 20 year old 200K milers taken out!)

Another reason why I am interested in the TYPE NUMBERS and not MAKES that have been used....

Diesel911 · #11 05-04-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

Which in itself suggests that the monark are a closer facsimile to the original, and that the bosio are not....(Just why is it, that bosio recommend the same nozzle for a variety of engines, where Bosch had different models for each...!!??)

Side-cut Pintle-nozzles like these in the Pre-chamber are tailored to their use. Practically any nozzle of this type will Work in there, but have differing torque characteristics at different speeds....(And be a vast improvement over some 20 year old 200K milers taken out!)

Another reason why I am interested in the TYPE NUMBERS and not MAKES that have been used....

I am not sure the type number is as helpful as you think. When I first got my car I bought some Nozzles that are labled DNO SD 220. However, this does not mean that it is a Bosch Spray Nozzle. It is a Brand X Itlian Nozzle made bye 7 Diesel (at least that is what I was told).

I the 5 years I worked in a Fuel Injection ship I saw the quality of Bosch Nozzles fall. If I built 6 Injectors I would get a variance of excclent to barly usable concerning the the seating area of the pintels in the Nozzles. Mainly meaning that a fair number would not met or barely pass the holding pressure test and drip more than the should.

I got similar results when I rebuilt my Volvo Injectors with Bosch Nozzles in 1992 and later in around 97 when I rebuilt them again ($11 each and Bosch made in Brazil).

In fact Bosch changed the specs back then to allow more of their dribbly nozzles to pass (this kept me from sending them back to the supplier like I did before the spec was changed).

I have built 2 Sets of Injectors with Monark Nozzles. All but 1 Nozzle that had a slighly feathered but OK spray pattern were all excellent and consistant.
The Brand X 7 Diesel Nozzles teste out as well as any Bunch of Bosch Nozzles I have tested in the past.

In any event I am not convinced that Bosch makes the best quality Spray Nozzles. But, where I worked we used a lot of them as they were cheaper.
During the same time CAV, American Bosch, Bryce and Diesel KiKi (Japan) made what I consider better quality Nozzles.

tbomachines · #12 05-04-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Also the DNO SD 220 Nozzles were not made for use in a 603 engine; so I am not seeing the logic of using the wrong Nozzle and at the same time saying that the Aftermarket Nozzles are wrong because they were not original equipment.

Took the words right out of my mouth! Additionally its tough to get into a discussion of fuel injectors without hearing about Monark or Bosio. I have heard many success stories for each brand, and just as many "failure" or clog remarks about Bosch. Bosch has (allegedly, I can't vouch for sure) transferred a lot of their manufacturing to India, which has negatively impacted their quality, or so I have heard.

Diesel911 · #13 05-04-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbomachines

Took the words right out of my mouth! Additionally its tough to get into a discussion of fuel injectors without hearing about Monark or Bosio. I have heard many success stories for each brand, and just as many "failure" or clog remarks about Bosch. Bosch has (allegedly, I can't vouch for sure) transferred a lot of their manufacturing to India, which has negatively impacted their quality, or so I have heard.

I had to revise my post and remove that part concerning the 603 as he said he was experimenting 617 abd 603 and the DNO SD 220 is used in NA 617s. My mistake for not remembering his origional post clearly.

pawoSD · #14 05-04-2009, 07:58 PM

Well, even so.....the Bosio's perform awesome, simple as that.

I get good mpg's and my car has much more low end torque than it did with the originals.

compu_85 · #15 05-04-2009, 09:41 PM

I wouldn't call the bosio nozzles mickey mouse. I have 85,000 miles on a set in my TDI, and know of many many others with lots of happy miles with their direct injection nozzles. It isn't a big leap to say their IDI nozzles are of similar quality. When my SDL needs new nozzles they'll be the ones I choose.

I'd love to have gotten OEM nozzles for my TDI, but they aren't available apart from the whole injector!

-J