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  #16  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:11 AM
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I think this is a very important thread but it SHOULD include Monarch and Bosio, not as better or worse than OEM but as comparisons to SPECIFIC part numbers of OEM as far as noise, idle, torque, plugging etc.
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  #17  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WD8CDH View Post
I think this is a very important thread but it SHOULD include Monarch and Bosio, not as better or worse than OEM but as comparisons to SPECIFIC part numbers of OEM as far as noise, idle, torque, plugging etc.
Exactly! TBH, I REALLY Didnt want to get into all that boso/monak/Make orientated stuff. Leave that for another debate....

Yes, Type Numbers and how you found thete way they perform....

Thanks Forced-Induction, These are exactly the sorts of comments I was looking for--(For the most part, they track with my own findings)....
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  #18  
Old 05-05-2009, 04:38 PM
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Monark was making diesel injectors when Bosch only did electrical parts. I cannot speak for Bosio but Monark supplies IPs for ships, buses, construction equipment and generators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
They are NOT O.E.M.

These makes are never used by Mercedes-Benz or any other vehicle-maker to my knowledge.--They are 'after-market' makes.

There are literally dozens of nozzle-makers supplying the repair sector, some are OK ish, some are downright crap. There are even rip-off Fake Bosch/Delphi nozzles around prolly made in China too, and are reasonably easy to spot.....

Vehicle makers buy the entire injection-system for each vehicle from Injection Equipment Makers like Bosch, Stanadyne, Diesel-Kiki Delphi, Lucas etc.
It would make No Sense for them to buy a pump from Bosch and an Injector Nozzle from monarch when Bosch worked with the vehicle-maker to devise/design the entire system for that particular application, and have designed suitable nozzle for That engine/car/trans combo-

-Who EVER heard of a Bosio or Monarch Injection-Pump on a vehicle!!.

I tried some spurious made nozzles,--more than once over the years--might even have been bosio--They were defo Italian, That I DO remember--They were crap, and I slung them back to the suppliers, and paid a little extra for a Proper make (Bosch).....

Never again. (I keep saying that, But it'll be a year or two before I try them again, as they are Just SO Cheap!...)
Always a Proper Make nozzle, Cant go wrong then, You Know its Correct and OEM.--IF its good enough for Mercedes-Benz, then its good enough for me

Especially considering its a fair bit of work to install them and set pressures correctly--You DONT want to do it twice!

Look at the various posts over the years concerning bosio nozzles lasting only a few thousand-miles before giving faults....

Anyway, This thread was looking at the Types and NOT the Makes of nozzle that have been used....
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Last edited by C Sean Watts; 05-05-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-05-2009, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
As post heading says...

Interested in those used in OM.617 and 602/3 series engines...

Not interested in Make (Which in a perfect-world is irrelevant), Only the Type Numbers...

Personally I have used/tested the following an N/A OM.617-

DN O SD 1510
DN O SD 220
DN O SD 240 and /A
DN O SD 261
DN O SD 265

RDN 12 SDC 6862C (Lucas/Delphi)

Latest is-

DN O SD 327 (Bosch) Equiv- RDN O SDC 6863C. (Delphi)--Looking good so far...

Plan to test-

DNOSD 314

And some custom-specials made in Germany when I can afford them...

I only ever use BOSCH or DELPHI types, and not any of the micky-mouse boso monach types available etc, as there are just TOO MANY Variables and counterfeit types round
The 1510, 314 and 327 are NOT interchangeable for the 617 engine and will damage pre chambers and/or pistons. HOWEVER, it has not stopped some folks I've talked to from using them.
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  #20  
Old 05-05-2009, 06:42 PM
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C Sean Watts--

I believe you are mis-informed concerning Bosch and fuel-injection....

It was Bosch who developed the very First Injection Pump And Injector that was fitted to the engine during development at the MAN works and designed by One, Rudolph Diesel. They then went on to supply fuel systems continuously from that point (Source, Robert-Bosch Website....).....

Also, Fitting a NON standard Pintle-Nozzle will NOT destroy a Pre-Chamber or engine component. However a Direct-Injection engine with 'Hole' type nozzles can be completely wrecked by the mis-use of an incorrect type nozzle...

The differences in Pintle design affect the torque, the Power and Economy and Emissions only. They are tailored to each engine, and the maker dictates the power et-al for his motors....

BTW, the 1510 was fitted to the OM615 for certain applications, and the 314 to some 605 and 606 engines for 'quiet-operation'--Mercedes words, not mine....

The 327 however was only ever fitted to a 1.4 Citroen AX as far as I can tell--No matter, They work pretty well, Very good low-down torque in comparison to the 240/ and getting very quiet now they are settling in
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  #21  
Old 05-05-2009, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
C Sean Watts--

I believe you are mis-informed concerning Bosch and fuel-injection....

It was Bosch who developed the very First Injection Pump And Injector that was fitted to the engine during development at the MAN works and designed by One, Rudolph Diesel. They then went on to supply fuel systems continuously from that point (Source, Robert-Bosch Website....).....

Also, Fitting a NON standard Pintle-Nozzle will NOT destroy a Pre-Chamber or engine component. However a Direct-Injection engine with 'Hole' type nozzles can be completely wrecked by the mis-use of an incorrect type nozzle...

The differences in Pintle design affect the torque, the Power and Economy and Emissions only. They are tailored to each engine, and the maker dictates the power et-al for his motors....

BTW, the 1510 was fitted to the OM615 for certain applications, and the 314 to some 605 and 606 engines for 'quiet-operation'--Mercedes words, not mine....


The 327 however was only ever fitted to a 1.4 Citroen AX as far as I can tell--No matter, They work pretty well, Very good low-down torque in comparison to the 240/ and getting very quiet now they are settling in
I read, write and speak German and I learned the time line at the Automotive museum in Zwickau. Like I said, no data will stop a home brew engineer from doing what he/she wants to do....

The photo is not mine, it was uploaded by another forum member (full credit to the owner.) A poorly spraying nozzle did this. This can also happen if a nozzle pattern is not properly matched to a prechamber it sprays into.
Attached Thumbnails
What Type, (Not Make) nozzles have you tried..???-prechamber4.jpg  
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  #22  
Old 05-06-2009, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
This can also happen if a nozzle pattern is not properly matched to a prechamber it sprays into.
Mercedes prechambers are unlike almost everything else. The ball does most of the atomization in these, others are an open swirl chamber. Those nozzles will run but the spray pattern will be way off.
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:21 AM
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A poorly spraying nozzle did this.

--Exactly. I rest my case.

ANY nozzle this is malfunctioning will cause damage. A new nozzle (of whatever Pintle-type with good spray-pattern) will be fine....

Here in Europe, I have seen 220 types and the 1510 used in 'standard' swirl-chamber engines, and in MB Pre-Chamber types....
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-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....

Last edited by Alastair; 05-06-2009 at 11:30 AM.
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I had to revise my post and remove that part concerning the 603 as he said he was experimenting 617 abd 603 and the DNO SD 220 is used in NA 617s. My mistake for not remembering his origional post clearly.
That was my mistake too, though I didn't know the part number....I thought he was going between NA and turbo injectors. My bad. I do still think that monarck and bosio should be considered in this discussion though.
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
A new nozzle (of whatever Pintle-type with good spray-pattern) will be fine....
UNTIL the prechamber looks like the one in the photo, even if it's brand new and spraying exactly like it should.

I didn't make that up nor did I learn it from a DIYer. When engineers at companies who design and manufacture them say, "X is good, Y we never tested and Z should not be done at all..." I'll put my faith in it.
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  #26  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
UNTIL the prechamber looks like the one in the photo, even if it's brand new and spraying exactly like it should.

I didn't make that up nor did I learn it from a DIYer. When engineers at companies who design and manufacture them say, "X is good, Y we never tested and Z should not be done at all..." I'll put my faith in it.
And, did you hear this From a Nozzle Designer, and referring Specifically to Pintle type DN.SD... types??

Over the years, Ive tried all sorts, and never had any damage at all. Believe me, I WILL tell you IF I ever suffer any pre-chamber/etc. damage from my experiments....

Currently, my 300D is using the more delicate (read crap...) old 'loop' type glow-plugs. These would be the first items to show damage due to their low mass in comparison to the 'ball' and chamber itself...
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W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #27  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Mercedes prechambers are unlike almost everything else. The ball does most of the atomization in these, others are an open swirl chamber. Those nozzles will run but the spray pattern will be way off.


So, in your case, the DN O SD 265 nozzles you are currently using in your 617 are not suitable--IF we take your statement as fact.

The 265 was never issued in any 617, however, the 261 was used in the 617 in the M.B. 4X4.....

the 265 was used in later Angled Injector 602/3 types with Offset-ball--Therefore the '--spray-pattern will be way off--' when used with the straight non-angled injector chamber and central ball of your 617....

But, Dont worry, You'll be quite safe, providing they are in good working condition --which I'm sure they are--I belie3ve you have found them very successful....

With regards these nozzle-types. The ones commonly found in the 617 etc, were designed well over 30 years ago...

There have been many more newer types designed with economy and power since.
All I'm trying to do is find a more efficient one of later design....
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W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #28  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:53 PM
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do you have any relevant information regarding spray pattern dimensions / patterns and velocity?

..or just trial and error?
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  #29  
Old 05-06-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
do you have any relevant information regarding spray pattern dimensions / patterns and velocity?

..or just trial and error?

I Really wish I did....

I have tried on many occasions to get such info from Bosch, Delphi, Lucas and others.

Its regarded as 'propriety information' and these makers will not disclose it under ANY circumstances.

They wont even allow me to have simple service-info/exploded diagrams of pumps with the settings or pump Test-Plans etc, These I had to get through 'Back-Door' means...

Diesel Injection really IS a 'closed-shop' with regards to Information.

I have to rely on microscopic examination of nozzle-pintles and assess their possibilities from that--Only way Ive found so far that illustrates the differences in the flat-cut and taper etc....
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Alastair AKA H.C.II South Wales, U.K. based member

W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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  #30  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
Monark was making diesel injectors when Bosch only did electrical parts. I cannot speak for Bosio but Monark supplies IPs for ships, buses, construction equipment and generators.

The following is a quote from Monark Website....

MonarkDiesel GmbH & Co. KG was founded in Hamburg in 1951. We specialise in precision-made injection equipment and have been supplying several leading car and engine manufacturers for many decades. To meet the requirements of our customers and the market, our product range will be continually updated and extended.
Today MD is a modern enterprise which does the customer a service with qualified and experienced employees.


At LEAST 10 years earlier, during WWII, Bosch made the fuel injection-pumps for Messershmidt ME 109 and others and they looks suspiciously similar to the PES types we all know and love....
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W123, 1985 300TD Wagon, 256K,
-Most recent M.B. purchase, Cost-a-plenty, Gulps BioDiesel extravagantly, and I love it like an old dog.

W114, 1975 280E Custard Yellow,
-Great above decks needs chassis welding--Really will do it this year....
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