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  #31  
Old 08-13-2009, 07:22 PM
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perhaps I am reading the diagram wrong and I haven't taken it out, but it appears that the end play is controlled by the bushings anyway. One held to the case with a washer and screw and the other over the shaft and in the timing device. Then the bolt goes down the center and holds the timing device against a sholder on one bushing and it against the bushing that is held by the washer. I guess the sholder on the shaft where it swells to the helical gear against the bushing that is held in place with the washer keeps it from moving forward. Unless that screw that holds the washr that holds the bushing is loose, I think I am going to have to replace both bushings. The big question is weather or not I am going to have to replace the one at the very back where the IP splines in. They say liquid nitrogen is needed to shrink it to drive it in...Where does that come from? Does anyone know if the job can be done without removing the IP and the shaft if the back bushing is alright?

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  #32  
Old 08-14-2009, 12:55 PM
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old style vacuum pump?

Just wondering about the old style vacuum pumps. Seems the would be less prone to breaking with a flexible diaphram. Has anyone tried one of these instead of the newer style?
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  #33  
Old 08-15-2009, 09:49 PM
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update

Today I got the timing device out and the only play seems to be in and out.

The bearing that is held to the case with a bolt and washer has quite a bit of wear.
There is a ridge that shows almost a third of a mm, it is a bronze bearing and the others are steel.

The wear is on the forward face where the steel could have done a job because the bolt that holds the timing device against it was loose the first time I replaced the vacuum pump.

Although tightening up that bolt might have kept the timing device from over traveling forward and punching the rod through the vacuum piston, it could do nothing to keep it from pulling to far at the other end of the stroke because the face of the bearing was worn.

Of course I dropped the woodruff key down the hole so the pan will have to come off, but at least it is time to change the oil.

Does anyone have intimate knowledge of the intermediate shaft on a late 240 or 300td (it is the same setup)?
I have done it all from the front without taking off the IP.
Am I reading the diagram right by thinking that the "front bearing" that is held to the case with a bolt and washer is the only thing that controls end play?
Or is there any kind of thrust washer behind on the other side?

There is a note in the diagrams in the shop manuals that says the "thrust washer and rear woodruff key has been eliminated" on this version but I want to be sure that I am not missing something.

I think I will have to call the dealer on Monday to order the bearing and they might be able to help but I thought I would ask here in the meantime.
Does anyone know a source for the bearing?

.
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Last edited by whunter; 09-28-2013 at 03:00 AM. Reason: spelling, readability
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  #34  
Old 08-15-2009, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conrad.g View Post
Today I got the timing device out and the only play seems to be in and out. The bearing that is held to the case with a bolt and washer has quite a bit of wear. there is a ridge that shows almost a third of a mm. It is a bronze bearing and the others are steel. The wear is on the forward face where the steel could have done a job because the bolt that holds the timing device against it was loose the first time I replaced the vacuum pump. Although tightening up that bolt might have kept the timing device from over travelling forward and punching the rod through the vacuum piston, it could do nothing to keep it from pulling to far at the other end of the stroke because the face of the bearing was worn. Of course I dropped the woodruf ket down the hole so the pan will have to come off, but at least it is time to change the oil. Does anyone have intimate knowledge of the intermediate shaft on a late 240 or 300td (it is the same setup)? I have done it all from the front without taking off the IP. Am I reading the diagram right by thinking that the "front bearing" that is held to the case with a bolt and washer is the only thing that controls endplay? Or is there any kind of thrust washer behind on the other side? There is a note in the diagrams in the shop manuals that says the "thrust washer and rear woodruf key has been eliminated" on this version but I want to be sure that I am not missing something. I think I will have to call the dealer on monday to order the bearing and they might be able to help but I thought I would ask here in the meantime. Does anyone know a source for the bearing?

1/3mm = about 0.33333 mm = about 0.01312 inches which is a lot of end play.
I will try to find a pic;there should be a thrust serface the opposite side.

In the below thumbnail I have drawn some arrows at what I think are thrust areas. (Also please point out the Steel Businig to me).
Remember I have never actually seen these parts I am only going by the drawing. There is a lot of bushings in there!

109- Bearing Bushing
110- Bearing Bushing Injection Timer Device
102- Bearing Front
105- Bearing Rear

After reading the condition of that 1 Bushing I would be curious to know the condition of all of the bushing in that area including the Oil Pump Drive Shaft and Bushings.

The Timer Drive Shaft and the Oil Pump Drive Shaft are an expensive set. Since a lot of that area is already apart I would pull them and check them.
Attached Thumbnails
second vacuum pump, help! on a trip-Toronto-timer-gear.jpg   second vacuum pump, help! on a trip-Toronto-timer-numbers.jpg  
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Last edited by Diesel911; 08-15-2009 at 10:52 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-16-2009, 10:56 AM
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That is a drawing of a different version and in the one on mine they state that the thrust washer and rear woodruff key have been omitted (actually four different versions, one if which has no cam, two of which have nuts holding the timing device on (you show one of them) and one, mine, that has a solid bolt down the center, also used on the 617 turbo engine), but the idea is the same.

The bushing in the timing device is steel and press fitted.
The bushing that that one rides on is also steel, freewheeling.

These show no signs of wear but I do not have the measurements so I cannot be sure. However, the bushing that is held to the case with a washer in a groove and a bolt to the case, number 102 (on my drawing) is bronze and shows the wear on the front facing surface.

That would allow the timing device to travel too far back and hence allow the cam that drives my vacuum pump to possibly become disengaged with the wheel that operates the for and aft movement of the pump allowing the spring that returns the piston to let the piston bottom out and create the "pulling" stress That separated the piston from the shaft.

It all adds up as to my problem.
But, where you drew the aft most arrows is an unknown area to me as I didn't remove the IP and the helical gear that drives the oil pump to have a look-see.

It is this area that I would love to have more intimate knowledge as, although there is no specific mention of and no part number for anything back there, the drawing looks as though there may be some sort of washer there between the bronze bearing that I took out (102) and the edge of the helical gear on the intermediate shaft holding the shaft from coming forward.

Perhaps it is just the edge of the shaft against the bushing (102) that does that. There is no wear at all on the bushing there.
Thanks for the attention.
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Last edited by whunter; 09-28-2013 at 02:57 AM. Reason: spelling, readability
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  #36  
Old 08-16-2009, 11:17 AM
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Oh, and just another thought.

I believe that the large amount of wear on the surface of the bronze bushing could very well have been the result of the bolt holding the timing device tight on the shaft having been just sitting there, no threads engaged the first time I took the vacuum pump off.

That heavy thing, although held from rotating by the woodruff key, was probably banging back against the bronze surface with each rotation of the cam against the vacuum pump spring.

There appears to be unnoticeable movement in a radial way, just end play and the wear on the cam (as an indicator because the pump is bolted to the block) appears even and symmetrical.

.
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Last edited by whunter; 09-28-2013 at 02:54 AM. Reason: spelling, readability
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  #37  
Old 02-06-2010, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I have looked in my FSM CD set and also in the 617.95 Engine Book and cannot find any spec on the clearance or wear limit of the timer Bushing/s.
If anyone finds it please let me know!
I did not find the clearances on the Busings but I did find the End Play For the Timer (I was there in both the CD and Paper Service Manual but some how I missed it).
Timer End Play
I went back and took a closer look at both the CD and book Service Manuals and found it listed as: End plan of intermediate sprocket shaft: 0.05-0.12mm.
In section 07.1-240 of the Service Manual.

I assume this is measured with the Timer assembled on the shaft and no Timing Chain on it to interfere with the measurment.

Attached Thumbnails
second vacuum pump, help! on a trip-Toronto-end-play-timer-shaft.jpg   second vacuum pump, help! on a trip-Toronto-timer-cross-section.jpg  
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2012, 11:49 PM
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Intermediate Shaft Removal and Installation

Thank you all for this invaluable forum. I am faced with a situation where the intermediate shaft has ~3+ mm play and has destroyed three vacuum pumps in ~10k miles in a 1982 240D, a friend's car.

I can't find a write up of timing device / intermediate shaft removal and installation--can anyone help with this? Does the engine or injection pump need to be removed?

Thanks for any help on this!
-noah
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2012, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nscarr View Post
Thank you all for this invaluable forum. I am faced with a situation where the intermediate shaft has ~3+ mm play and has destroyed three vacuum pumps in ~10k miles in a 1982 240D, a friend's car.

I can't find a write up of timing device / intermediate shaft removal and installation--can anyone help with this? Does the engine or injection pump need to be removed?

Thanks for any help on this!
-noah
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  #40  
Old 09-27-2013, 10:24 AM
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I would also be interested in recieving the information. I haven't destroyed a vacuum pump but I have 300,000+ miles and I was wondering if I should just check it.
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  #41  
Old 09-27-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ichris93 View Post
I would also be interested in recieving the information. I haven't destroyed a vacuum pump but I have 300,000+ miles and I was wondering if I should just check it.
(Obviously) I don't know what Roy sent but I've put some information here that might answer some of your questions

More than you are likely to ever want to know about OM61X piston vacuum pumps

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