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  #1  
Old 09-22-2009, 02:06 AM
tankowner's Avatar
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Some mangled clutch components . . . and a question.

Well, I knew when I bought the 240D that, at a minimum, I would be replacing the release bearing and I suspected that some other components would just be updated at the same time. I haven't been driving it since I brought it home, but I did take it out for a quick spin around the block the other day and the shifting was not going so well. I decided to just go ahead and drop the transmission so I could have a look and see how bad things were. As you can see, not so good.

Anyway, I already have new release and pilot bearings and will be ordering the pressure plate. What I am wondering is if I need to replace the clutch disc, too. Conventional wisdom says to just replace the whole deal now and forget about it. But, the reason I ask is because the PO has stated that he had replaced the master cylinder and "clutch" at some point. Anyway, if he really did replace something, I suspect it was probably only the clutch disc and probably nothing else. The car has 217,000 miles on it; although I don't know when he supposedly changed it I would suspect that it still has good life on it and I hate to pitch it if I could get another 100K miles out of it. The question then is, how do I determine how much life IS left on it. I know about the little tool for checking via the slave cylinder gasket gap, but I didn't do that (do not have the little tool) and now the clutch disc is out. Are there any specifications on the minimum thickness? Or something else I can look for? I can take pics of the clutch disc if that woule be helpful. Thanks in advance.

Attached Thumbnails
Some mangled clutch components . . . and a question.-bellhousing.jpg   Some mangled clutch components . . . and a question.-tobearing.jpg  
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'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman

Last edited by tankowner; 09-24-2009 at 11:22 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-22-2009, 06:15 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
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I have never seen a throw out bearing fail like that. I would suspect the mileage on the car and probably replace all parts. YOu now know how much work it is to remove the tranny so that is your guide to how much its worth to skip any parts.

You also might ask yourself if you will be driving the car for another ten years.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #3  
Old 09-22-2009, 06:26 AM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
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Minumum thickness of the clutch disc depends a lot on your style of driving. I replaced the clutch disc and pressure plate on my VW Rabbit a few years ago because I didn't like the "action" anymore- it had become very hard to "feather" the clutch. When I looked at the disc, it still had plenty of life on it after more than 100K of driving (mostly highway). So if you have like 1/16" on both sides before you can see rivets, you probably can get 50-100K IF you don't use it much like I did. But if your driving is all stop and go, better change it.

Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2009, 07:35 AM
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85 300D 4spd+tow+h4
 
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Glazing is a frequent occurrence for me .

My last throw out bearing started huming in a few months. My new OE one works just fine.
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2009, 09:49 AM
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Hmmm. OK, thanks for the thoughts guys. I have pretty much been leaning towards just replacing the whole deal. I will take another look at the clutch disc tonight and maybe snap a couple of pics and take a few measurements.

How about another question? Since I have the whole thing apart, what else should I be doing. Should I pull the flywheel, too, to have it machined? Maybe I'll take some pics there too. Is that very involved? Or do you just pull it, get it machined, and slap it back in?

Anything else? It is incredibly filthy inside the bellhousing. Do people generally clean it out in there?
__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2009, 10:17 AM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Central FL
Posts: 3,069
The flywheel , yes, can be unbolted and brought to a machine shop for attention. If there isn't any heavy scoring and the clutch seems to release smoothly now, that may be a waste of money. However, if you do buy a new clutch disc, but don't machine the flywheel, your clutch disc will "wear-in" to conform to the surface of the flywheel, so be careful here.

Measure your clutch friction material down to the rivets with a depth gauge and let us know what you got.

Rick
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80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
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  #7  
Old 09-22-2009, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs899 View Post
Measure your clutch friction material down to the rivets with a depth gauge and let us know what you got.

Rick
Thanks Rick, will do - probably at lunch time, if not, later tonight.
__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman
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  #8  
Old 09-22-2009, 11:53 AM
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85 300D 4spd+tow+h4
 
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Posts: 9,346
I have a spare setup if you are interested in buying it. Flywheel + friction disk + pressure plate.
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1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
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  #9  
Old 09-22-2009, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tankowner View Post
Hmmm. OK, thanks for the thoughts guys. I have pretty much been leaning towards just replacing the whole deal. I will take another look at the clutch disc tonight and maybe snap a couple of pics and take a few measurements.

How about another question? Since I have the whole thing apart, what else should I be doing. Should I pull the flywheel, too, to have it machined? Maybe I'll take some pics there too. Is that very involved? Or do you just pull it, get it machined, and slap it back in?

Anything else? It is incredibly filthy inside the bellhousing. Do people generally clean it out in there?
If you have access to a steam cleaner, that will pretty up the transmission, or a carwash pressure washer with hot water.

when you remove the FW, be sure to mark it and the crank so it goes back on the same way.

Think the FW bolts are a 12mm 12 point socket. some say to replace the bolts with new, and others say it`s ok to use the same one`s. only thing is, you don`t know if they were used before on a clutch job.

charlie
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2009, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charmalu View Post
If you have access to a steam cleaner, that will pretty up the transmission, or a carwash pressure washer with hot water.

when you remove the FW, be sure to mark it and the crank so it goes back on the same way.

Think the FW bolts are a 12mm 12 point socket. some say to replace the bolts with new, and others say it`s ok to use the same one`s. only thing is, you don`t know if they were used before on a clutch job.

charlie
Thanks Charlie, I was thinking about hauling the transmission to the car wash and giving it a good degreasing. I guess I'll go that route.

You are correct, the FW bolts are 12 mm 12 points. I have done some reading on here about the bolts. These are stretch bolts, correct? If so, and if I decide to pull the FW, I will replace them. The torque appears to be 30-40Nm + 90deg angle rotation. (I really need to get a FSM) I was hesitant to pull the FW because of the balancing issue, but I guess if I mark its position, have it machined, and then put it back the same position, then balancing shouldn't be an issue, right?
__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman
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  #11  
Old 09-23-2009, 02:42 AM
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I`ll be darn if I can find the spects in the FSM, and I have a bunch of them.
In my notes I have the same torque for the bolts you have 30-40nm (22 to 30ft#) and a final step, rotate bolt head an additional 90 to 100deg.

even the stupid haynes manual doesn`t have anything about the FW except if it is grooved to have it machined. but nothing about replacing it.

maybe I got my info from some of the 4-speed swap threads.

get that greasy old trans cleaned up and it is nicer to work with clean parts.

yeah put a good mark on the FW and then just line it up and good to go.
Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
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  #12  
Old 09-23-2009, 06:46 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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If you have the fw machined you need to put a shim plate behind it to compensate. I did not and my friction point is very near the floor.....uncomfortable.

Yeah, the fw bolts are stretch, IIRC. They can be measured and reused if not stretched too much. Early cars may not have stretch bolts.
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #13  
Old 09-23-2009, 10:20 AM
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This is the first I have heard of a shim plate. where would one be obtained?
Where is the plate installed? between the crank and FW?

My friction point seems too low for me.

Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
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  #14  
Old 09-23-2009, 11:54 AM
tankowner's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charmalu View Post
This is the first I have heard of a shim plate. where would one be obtained?
Where is the plate installed? between the crank and FW?

My friction point seems too low for me.

Charlie

Same questions from me, too. I have searched and found limited reference here to the flywheel shims. Tom and 300Sdog have mentioned them in previous posts.

Tom, is it possible to adjust the clutch pedal to compensate for the flywheel resurfacing? I have no idea, that's why I ask.

I'm just continuing to mull this over, my feeling right now is that I might just leave the FW alone. Given the stretch bolts and shims - maybe it is better left alone if it didn't seem to be much of an issue before. The obvious problem was the release bearing which took out the pressure plate. I will replace those along with the pilot bearing and probably the clutch disc, too.

Wait, do I have to remove the FW to get to the pilot bearing? Ha, ha, ha - I'll figure it out.

I appreciate all the help thus far guys. I will take a closer look at the FW surface and decide what to do there. If it looks sketchy, I will pull it an inspect further. If I do that I will plan on replacing the bolts. If I pull it, then why not get it machined since it is out. If I get it machined, do I need shims? Who knows?

Anyone have info on shims? Anyone have more info on the FW specs - does the FSM say anything more about this procedure?

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to . . . uh, rebuild the clutch. Perhaps I should not overthink the process.
__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman

Last edited by tankowner; 09-23-2009 at 12:01 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-23-2009, 12:30 PM
winmutt's Avatar
85 300D 4spd+tow+h4
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Atl Gawga
Posts: 9,346
Depending on how much has been taken off the same amount of material can be removed from the mounting surface of the pressure plate if it is slipping.

I have 2 spare flywheels....

__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42
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