Just curious here. How hard have you pushed your 123 in the curves, twisties, or whatnot? Assuming stock tires, how exactly did you find the handling "limits" of your car?

This is not to be construed as advocating that you do so on public roads however!

The best way to find out the limits of any car is to take a high performance driving course using your own car. Not inexpensive, and I can just imagine the looks on people’s faces when you register with a diesel.

Another way is to find a large empty expanse of asphalt, like a regional mall or sports stadium parking lot (preferably without light poles, parking stops, & curbing). Go in the middle of the night, and have plenty of quarters in your pocket for the payphone at the jail. Just kidding...well, kind of kidding – you never know. The best time is when it is raining; the lower traction will mimic high speed handling characteristics to a certain extent, without as much risk.

A few tips: ALL street cars are setup to understeer, some more dramatically than others. Most Mercedes are moderate to heavy with understeer. Be aware that with a semi-trailing arm rear suspension, (like on the 123) if you build up to the limits of lateral adhesion in a fairly neutral drift, at the very limit the rear end will tend to come around with trailing throttle (caused by toe-out with the shifting geometry of the trailing arm & the forward weight transfer). This is what allows experienced drivers to rotate (yaw) the chassis when desired. The key words in the preceding sentence are “when desired”. If it occurs when it is not desired, it can be BAD NEWS. The chassis can also be ‘tossed’ to a certain extent, but that’s really counterproductive. You obviously don’t have the power (or a locking differential) to throttle steer it with a diesel.

So, learn the limits & then don’t exceed them whenever there is any possibility of harming anything or anyone other than yourself.

Have Fun!

RTH

I've found my car to be an excellent handler... I push my car daily, and I find it quite satisfying. Though some my differ, the w123 was hailed as one of the fineset handeling machines of its day, though the 123 is very conservative about it. There are no frills, or engineered sensations (BMW) when pushing a 123. I've had to run away from many a villan in my car, and the biggest thing this car has is its on road prowess, not speed. BTW, there is a 123 in that new Brad Pitt movie, a white one. I think its in a chase....

As mentioned above, throttle lift oversteer via the semi-trailing arm suspension is a great thing if you know how to use it. You can balance the natural understeer and expand the limits of the car a bit under certain conditions.

-Joe

I don't usually corner my 123 hard enough to cause it to slip out, but the few times that I have lost a bit of grip (with almost worn tires), the car slipped and slid extremely predictably. The problem with these cars I think is it's high center of gravity due to it's ride height and hefty weight (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing). Because of this, I think it wide sweeping curves the car feels more cumbersome than it is as the shocks slowly give and the car begins to lean so much that you really have to hold on to something to keep steady in the seat (certainly not fun for passengers). In short "switch backs," the car is actually almost a pleasure as it can feel very tossable in short turns. I came across some lowering springs for a W123 280E and have always wondered if they could be applied to the diesel. I'll look up the website later on and post it here.

Power on these cars is surprisingly acceptable. I think tighter, tauter, lower springs made by a good manufacturer could make these heavy cars much much more enjoyable.

Going along with this same theme, would new springs help out the ride and handling of my car a lot? I just changed my old original bilsteins with new bilsteins and it made an incredible difference. I now wonder if I should have replaced the springs as well.

Alex

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1983 300D (parked for four years)
2012 VW Sportwagen TDI Manual
2001 Miata SE
1962 Chevrolet Corvair Rampside

I can't believe that I'm here, reading a thread about 123 handling. I love to drive a 123. I feel confident and in control, but IMHO, come on, it's not a good handling car. When I think of a good handling car, my four wheel drive pickup probably handles better.

Don't get me wrong, I might be the biggest 123 fan in the world, but they're not known for their handling capabilities.

Just my opinion,

I have never pushed it hard enough for the car to slide or lose grip. There is just too much body roll, a very high center of gravity, and too much weight. We all know these cars were made to go fast on the Autobahn, not handle like sports cars, so you can't blame the W123. For what it is (a 3,600 lbs luxury sedan that was developed in the 70's that has a lot of weight, high center of gravity), it's a great handling car. I'm guessing when it first came out (like Randall mentioned), it was probably one of the best handling sedans out there, maybe only 2nd to BMW. And we all also know BMW's focus more on sport than luxury so there's not surprise there.

Well, I don't often disagree with Larry on much but in this case I want to make a few points.

First, the W123 was designed in the early '70s and built in the mid 70's to mid '80's. At the time it was one of the best handling luxury sedans on the market. I would suggest the W123 chassis defined the class of vehicles that evolved into what are now known as high performance luxury sedans. In fact, the then contemporary "S" class was named by Road and Track in around 1975 or so to be the best sedan in the world, and the W126 that followed, using the same basic suspension arrangement of the W123, was used by Bob Bondurant at his driving school to demonstrate classroom discussions on handling.

Compared to the standards of the average econobox today, well, the W123 is heavy and its suspension outdated, and it shows on a track. While many W123 owners never cared to find out how well the cars handle, they obviously enjoy the control and agility the car offers in every day driving. I would much prefer the precise feedback (I feel I know the location and can control the placement of each tire when I am driving these cars) and controlled transitions from understeer to oversteer I get from the 240D than the Nintendo feel of the controls in many of the cars of today with better track numbers. I am also not impressed with the new rack and pinion steering in my 1998 E300D TurboDiesel, as I really liked the feel of the recirculating ball system I grew accustomed to on all my previous Benz's and see no improvement (and possibly a slight loss of feedback) with the new system.

But to the original question, an my answer. I have been driving these things for over twenty years, so there was a time when I routinely pushed them just because. And I loved driving around the twisty roads in Upstate New York glued to the rear of a BMW 3 series, which I could not pass but could easily keep up with as long as there was no long steep uphill grade.

I found the only alarming conditions were in snowy or slippery weather, when the Diesel compression braking acting on the rear wheels could bring about a sudden and often hard to control tendency to swap ends. I am not sure if this happens with an automatic or not, but I learned to be very cautious and ready with the clutch if I backed off the throttle even slightly when I was in Alaska. There was this one stop sign at the bottom of little hill, and more than once I went spinning past it after a snowfall before I learned how seriously the compression braking was changing the speed of the rear tires. The engine speed would drop to idle and the car was still going faster than that, which is all it took on the little hill to get the rear tires to try to pass the front ones.

Overall I think the car has a chassis capable of much more than the engine can make use of, which is good reason to give these cars to younger drivers learning how to drive. Like Larry said, this is just my opinion. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Sure the w123's don't handle like High end sports cars. You do have to understand that they are sedans that are used on public roads. That said, they handle darn good on public roads, a competent driver (you have to be somewhat smart to be driving a Benz) will know where his wheels are in relation to everything around him. The car behaves just like you want. I actually prefer my 300D over the Jetta I drove before (although I prefered the 5 speed in the Jetta and the greater control I got from it)

__________________
2005 Audi A4 1.8T CVT -Silver/Black "Siegfried"

1982 300D - Silver/Blue "Ralph" -For Sale:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-benz-cars-sale/119226-1982-300d-sale.html#post852260

1989 VW Diesel Jetta Blue/Blue "Bodo" RIP

My first car was a 95 VW Jetta GLS with a stick. Loved the car, thought it was the best thing on wheels (isn't your first always the best?) BUT in time I found it crude, and brash. Got into plenty of trouble with that car, and I'm not talking the law here! VERY bad handler, but fun. The 300D is a MUCH better car on all types of roads, even given its weight and age. Its like 1000 pounds heavier, has only 10 more horses and is 10 years older. BUT still a better car. Okay, it cost twice the Jetta in 1984... Point is, the Merc is ahead of the game. Hell, my 123 has been known to fight and get the best of cars with twice the power, and twice the original cost. Depends on the circumstances. The 300D has never let me down and is more than adequate to satisfy this picky car nut.... (And yes, I have driven larger number Mercs, BMWs and Porsches as well...) And the 123 does it all so well without calling any attention to itself.

I'll give you the fact that the 3rd gen VW's were pretty crappy. The earlier the better except for the new GTi's. I started learning the driving arts in an 84 Diesel Rabbit at the local high school's parking lot, my first car was the 89 Jetta in my sig. I felt that the Rabbit was probably equal or slightly better then the Jetta in handling and "performance" (they both had 52hp)

I dunno what they did to the 3rd gen VW's but they were pretty crappy in respects to reliability and quality compared to the 1st and 2nd gen's.


But this is a MB forum, we all know MB's are the best cars out there.

__________________
2005 Audi A4 1.8T CVT -Silver/Black "Siegfried"

1982 300D - Silver/Blue "Ralph" -For Sale:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=852260

1989 VW Diesel Jetta Blue/Blue "Bodo" RIP

Generally I think that W123's handle well but are hampered by body roll and isolated steering. Body roll and non communicative steering don't inspire confidence during aggressive driving. Before I got my '82 300D Turbo I had a '87 Jetta GL (blue/blue) which had little body roll and lots of steering feel.

It's odd that W123's aren't better handling cars since they have many revised and carry over parts from the much better handling W116 like the front suspension. You'd figure they would make the larger more expensive W116 the luxo cruiser and make the smaller, cheaper W123 a better handler.

that would explain it

I remember looking at the little plate on my Jetta that stated (in German, helps to know the language working on their cars )

"Built in the Federal Republic of West Germany 5/89"
I held a little birthday party on it's 10th birthday, it got a complete fluid and filter change, and a nice wash

__________________
2005 Audi A4 1.8T CVT -Silver/Black "Siegfried"

1982 300D - Silver/Blue "Ralph" -For Sale:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=852260

1989 VW Diesel Jetta Blue/Blue "Bodo" RIP

The W123 is a very nicely balanced sedan. It will eventually slide when you've reached the limits of tire adhesion, but will give you ample warning (that is, handling will "fade" as you approach the limits -- so sudden "God let go" events like my old Audi Fox!).

It is probably unlikely that anyone will push a diesel W123 past the limits unless on a mountain downgrade due to lack of horsepower. The gas models can get you into trouble.

They do not tend to lose tires like the W115s, though, which is a good thing -- the W115s have very little body roll, at it is possible to force the outside tire off the rim in a fast, hard turn! Very scary, as the car will shoot straight off the road! The W123 will "plow" instead.

Snow and ice handling in diesels is bad -- too much torque!

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Again,

IMHO, the 123 offers a feeling of confidence on the highway, or even a tight, winding, narrow, paved farm road. But, to imply that this is a great handling car just blows me completely away. This is NOT a sports car, it's a well designed sedan!

Of cars in it's class, a front engine, rear wheel drive grocery getting sedan, sure it out handles a seventies Crown Vic, or Caprice, maybe the same size car of the period would be a Fairmont or Malibu, but what about an equivalent BMW? Comparing to a Jetta is totally an oranges to apples comparison, the Jetta is front wheel drive for goodness sakes.

Again, I'm not bashing the 123, it excels in so many categories, the most important to me being it's long, reliable life, but get real, this is not a GREAT handling car, even for it's time period.

Another thing, I sure hope that I misunderstood one of the posts in this thread. One of them said, I think, that the 123 oversteers, PLEASE......

I bought my first 123 car in late '77, I drove a number of other cars that belonged to various friends as well as my own toys of the period, and even for it's time it was not a sports car. It was a great car to drive in which you felt confident driving.

IMHO,