I was wondering if there is such a thing as a flow meter that you can attach to the injector lines. This along with the glow plug resistance method sure would help in troubleshooting.

In the hydraulic industry we have some that clamp on to the steel lines for systems that are hard plumbed.

I'm looking for a simpler way to check the balance rather than removing the injection pump .

This comes up as I found my new engine in my 300SD with one of the barrels turned toward the less fuel position. You could see where it had been due to age. So after marking the position I turned it to where it looked like it originally was and the engine smoothed out. It also had a snappier throttle response.

Sure would be nice if there was something available .

__________________


Experience : what you receive 3 seconds after you really needed it !!



86 300SDL 387,000? Motor committed suicide
81 300SD 214,000 "new" 132,000 motor
83 300SD 212,000 parts car
83 300SD 147,000

91 F700 5.9 cummins 5spd eaton 298,000
66 AMC rambler American 2dr auto 108,000
95 Chevy 3/4 ton auto 160,000
03 Toyota 4runner 180,000 wifes

The Fuel Injection Pump Test Stands all have flow merters for a long time now.

The old ones actually had Graduates that measured in cc. When you pressed the button the Test Machine actually shoved the Tubes the Fuel was coming out of over the Graduates and pulled them away when the number of strokes on the counter was over with.

I do not think that that milivolt Glow Plug methond is accurate unless you use the exact same Glow Plug in each cylinder. Even then you are not measureing the Fuel Delivered but the amount of heat in the cylinder. A difference in compression between cylinders would cause different cylinder temps.

It is common to have Pyrometes in each exhaust outlet on larger Diesel Engines and I know of some instances where they them to adjust their Fuel Injection.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

If you had all five cylinder injectors spraying into graduated containers is the same method recomended in older volkswagon literature. Compare all volumes after so may revolutions with the engine. When you have gathered enough for comparison.

There is no affordable actual flow method measuring than I can think of otherwise. Other than a pump shop.

The milli amp system will indicate problems but you have to be consistant with no short cuts. It usually will give an indcation of a problem but not the cause of it every time. Other than it will also indicate when the problem has gone. It in my opinion is about the best cheap method for certain type problems. Mostly based on it being a dynamic test method.

For flow duration you could hook up a piezo ( acceleration / shock / sound ) sensor similar to the one used in diesel timing devices.
if you would observe the signal from this sensor on an oscilloscope I would imagine that you could "see" or better listen the opening and closing sound of the check valve of the IP or the opening / closing sound of the injector itself,
Depending on the oscilloscope ( digital) it would be easy to measure the duration of the injection. Assuming that each pump element of the IP has the same leakage and each injector the same opening pressure then that duration would be a good gauge of volume.
This is what the whole concept of fuel injection relies on.

By checking the injection duration of each cylinder you would know that all cylinders are balanced.

If you would have a sensor hooked up to each injector line and a multi channel scope you could visualize the differences between the injection duration of each cylinder immediately.

Another advantage is that the sound profile of the IP or injector would tell a whole story about the operation of the IP or injector.
Similar as the stethoscope.

I have not tried the above, unfortunately i do not have a sensor, i do have the scope.If there are unused sensors floating around that someone is willing to get rid off please let me know.
Of course I would publish the results.

Later J

__________________
85 MB 300TD with om616 4 spd
83 MB 300TD
83 MB 240D scrapped
82 MB 240D scrapped
97 Ford E350 diesel 4x4, WVO
94 Ford E350 4x4 diesel blown head..parts car
85 cherokee diesel 2.1, 300.000, WVO
85 cherokee diesel 2.1
85 lebaron convertible, to be electric
85 lada niva 4x4 with 1.9 peugeot diesel,
72 citroen DS 5spd, LPG
77 Jaguar XJS, LPG
73 corvette 350 auto
88 MB Gelande 240 GD military
98 Ford E350 mini bus to be new 4x4 camper

Should have quoted this in my previous post, but this method is the most logical and straightforward compensating for all variables although if not the same you would not know where the problem is, IP damage / wear, miss-adjustment, injector problems.

It would be fun to connect an IP to a lathe and let it do this at several speeds and throttle settings.

later J

__________________
85 MB 300TD with om616 4 spd
83 MB 300TD
83 MB 240D scrapped
82 MB 240D scrapped
97 Ford E350 diesel 4x4, WVO
94 Ford E350 4x4 diesel blown head..parts car
85 cherokee diesel 2.1, 300.000, WVO
85 cherokee diesel 2.1
85 lebaron convertible, to be electric
85 lada niva 4x4 with 1.9 peugeot diesel,
72 citroen DS 5spd, LPG
77 Jaguar XJS, LPG
73 corvette 350 auto
88 MB Gelande 240 GD military
98 Ford E350 mini bus to be new 4x4 camper

I have some more fun for you.

I worked in a Fuel Injection Shop and part of my job was calibrating the Fuel Injection Pumps.

While the Pump is on the Test Stand you will at least check the idle Fuel quantity and the full load Fuel quantity.

What you often find on a used Fuel Injection Pump or one where you are reusing the original Elements is that if you get your idle Fuel quantity correct when you go up to the Full Load quantity it is off. It also works the other way. If you adjust it to the Full Load Fuel quantity the Idle quantity is off (and you get an uneven idle).

In the end it is better to pick the Full Load quantity to be balanced; the uneven idle is just a nusience. While on an Engine that actually pulls a load 1 Cylinder getting too much fuel can over time Crack a Crankshaft.
On a Car this is not a problem as a car seldom is fully loaded; let alone for long periods of time.

There is also another issue that is partly checked into in the Factory Service manual where you are ask to drip time another Element on the IP. This has to do with the begin injection point for each of the individual Elements.
When the IP is set up in the shop each Element is drip timed per x amount of degrees. You can do this on the Test Stand as it has a Degree Wheel on it or there is a Degree Wheel you can mount on the IP while it is on your work Bench.
Most inline IPs have different thicknesses of Tappet Plates to adjust the above but others have and adjustment screws.
The above changes due to wear on the IP Camshaft and the Tappet Pins and Roller parts;and to a lesser extent to wear in the Elements themselves.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Wouldn't the other issue be injector pop pressures and wear? The pump provides more than the injector allows. That's why we have return lines on the injectors isn't it????

I think flow would tell you very little in the big picture. Pop pressure and spray pattern would tell you more. The pump is more than capable of providing enough fuel. Also EGT might be more important.

__________________
92 300D 2.5L OM602 OBK #59

Wow !! lots of input thanks guys ! Now I'm really thinking.
What I was after was a engine analyzer like the old sun one for gas engines. The same way Joe was describing.

But after reading diesel911 and Bobo's post I started thinking am I really needing to see the flow or more so the timing and injector pop pressure.

Turning the barrel changes the timing of the injection and The shims are what changes the amount then?

Barry's milivolt method then is the easiest and cheapest way to identify cylinder abnormalities using the glow plug as a thermocouple / pyrometer.
But then going back you still need to check compression , injector , valve adjust etc. before troubleshooting the pump.

This comes up because this being the second barrel I found out of whack , how many more cars are suffering from the same problem? Both my 240 and my wife's 300 had one barrel turned toward the negative indicating they are being moved when injection lines are loosened.
You can see on the barrel plate where the washer was due to the shiny portion exposed when moved. Marking the barrels on our existing pumps may be beneficial as well if the lines are going to be removed.

Just looking for a simple way to troubleshoot and repair a possibly good pump with a minor problem than having it reworked for 600 + dollars.

Forgive me for any dumb or drawn out questions I'm still new on these diesels but with the help here I'm learning !!

__________________


Experience : what you receive 3 seconds after you really needed it !!



86 300SDL 387,000? Motor committed suicide
81 300SD 214,000 "new" 132,000 motor
83 300SD 212,000 parts car
83 300SD 147,000

91 F700 5.9 cummins 5spd eaton 298,000
66 AMC rambler American 2dr auto 108,000
95 Chevy 3/4 ton auto 160,000
03 Toyota 4runner 180,000 wifes

Turning the Barrel changes the amount of Fuel the Element puts out (on MW pumps). (On M pumps this is done by sliding a bolck that is on the rack and tightening the block in place to fix the adjustment.)

The shims change the timing of the Plungers start to move.

The Plungers always move the same distance; constant stroke.

Apparently more people (POs) than I though like to mess with their Fuel Injection Pumps.

The only things that could cause the Barrel to rotate is if the Fuel Injection Line Nut at the IP was rusted on and someone was trying to loosen the Nut or some one really over torqued the Fuel Injection Line.
Next someone would have to purposely loosen them to move them; even if out of ignorance.

I believe when people do not understand their cars they often blame the item/s that they least understand (and the reason why some messed with their IP).
When they have a Glow Plug Problem they blame the Relay.
When they have a Fuel Problem they blame the Fuel Injection Pump.
When there is a no Cranking problem they blame the Starter
When there is a no charging problem they blame the Alternator

This line of thought leads to tinkering with stuff you do not understand and trouble shooting by replacing parts. (I am using "you" to mean myself, because I have done it to; and learned the hard way.)

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

OK got that one backwards. So I am dealing with flow or a better word here would be volume.

So after exhausting all other avenues of troubleshooting one could mark the barrel in its current position. Then use what is believed to be the original position ( washer mark on barrel ) checking outcome and if positive dial it in with the milivolt method ?

The remaining barrels are so close you would need a dial indicator to measure. Where as the one could be measured with a ruler.

A good example would be using lines as the barrels looking down you would see this:

| | \ | |

Then looking closer you can see the washer marks. I think it is from the line being rusted or stuck as you stated and not using a backup on the barrel.
I see wrench marks on the lines but not on the barrel hold downs. The marks on the lines look as if the wrench was being pushed pretty hard. This is on both pumps as well.

This doesn't seem to be deliberate as its in the less fuel position which makes the engine run rough and hesitate on acceleration. Similar to retarding the timing on a gasser.

__________________


Experience : what you receive 3 seconds after you really needed it !!



86 300SDL 387,000? Motor committed suicide
81 300SD 214,000 "new" 132,000 motor
83 300SD 212,000 parts car
83 300SD 147,000

91 F700 5.9 cummins 5spd eaton 298,000
66 AMC rambler American 2dr auto 108,000
95 Chevy 3/4 ton auto 160,000
03 Toyota 4runner 180,000 wifes