The Ultimate Auto Versus Manual Thread?

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by markho

ohhhhh snap!!

Sorry i'm not very smart, as you all know by now. Whats the difference between column and floor shifter exactly? Are you saying that MB has a steering column manual shifter ?

And clutch pedals used to go down through the floor instead of being hung from the top too

trouble is, on the column, there was only three speeds (plus reverse) in an H pattern.

[winmutt]

Manual FTW. Never drove an automatic I like. I could be partial to the auto clutchers or may an auto when I have 800hp on tap.

Originally Posted by Stevo

And clutch pedals used to go down through the floor instead of being hung from the top too

trouble is, on the column, there was only three speeds (plus reverse) in an H pattern.

Technically not true. In the US, yes all column shift manuals I know of were three speeds. In Germany in the late sixties, early seventies, I saw quite a number of cars, mostly MB's, with four speeds on the column.

[Stretch]

When you are sitting in traffic - and you do a lot of that here - auto is the way to go. On empty twisty mountain roads I'd pick a manual.

If I ever move to a place with hills I'd love a Top Gear flappy paddle gearbox!

[Mark DiSilvestro]

Originally Posted by Stevo

And clutch pedals used to go down through the floor instead of being hung from the top too

trouble is, on the column, there was only three speeds (plus reverse) in an H pattern.

Actually, most imports including Mercedes, offered 4-speeds on the column. Alfa-Romeo even had a 5-speed columnshift in the '50s.

I remember those rare occasions when I had to let someone else drive my Ponton 180, like when getting new tires. I usually had to instruct the guy on how to operate the columnshift. Othewise, they almost always assumed the car was a 3-speed. Even if they managed to get in the bay in second, they would then try to back out in first.

By the late '60s, taking the lead from sportscar-practice, most imports only sold floorshift-manuals in the US.
By then, manual-columnshifts had become uncool - relegated mostly to cheap American cars and pickups. Even the automatic-shifters started moving between the seats.
Columnshift-manuals were still offered on many imports outside North America, well into the 1970s. I beleive they were even availible on the W123 Mercedes into the 1980s.
While it wasn't a manual, last year, I looked at an '83 Euro Mercedes 230TE wagon with a columnshift automatic - something I've never seen in any US-market W123.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[automch]

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Technically not true. In the US, yes all column shift manuals I know of were three speeds. In Germany in the late sixties, early seventies, I saw quite a number of cars, mostly MB's, with four speeds on the column.

Actually my 1966 Benz 200 was a 4 spd on the column. Bought it new November 66 in Utica, New York and it was a USA model. I drove it until Jan 72. Great car for 200K until the dampner spun on the crank for the 3rd time and wiped the crank. My 87 Escort is a 5spd manual.

As for driving manuals, I work for the Fire Department and we can no longer buy manuals trans trucks since we cannot hire people that can drive them. Everything is going to automatics. Too bad, cause there is nothing like driving a roadranger 16 speed!

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by Mark DiSilvestro

Actually, most imports including Mercedes, offered 4-speeds on the column. Alfa-Romeo even had a 5-speed columnshift in the '50s.

I remember those rare occasions when I had to let someone else drive my Ponton 180, like when getting new tires. I usually had to instruct the guy on how to operate the columnshift. Othewise, they almost always assumed the car was a 3-speed. Even if they managed to get in the bay in second, they would then try to back out in first.

By the late '60s, taking the lead from sportscar-practice, most imports only sold floorshift-manuals in the US.
By then, manual-columnshifts had become uncool - relegated mostly to cheap American cars and pickups. Even the automatic-shifters started moving between the seats.
Columnshift-manuals were still offered on many imports outside North America, well into the 1970s. I beleive they were even availible on the W123 Mercedes into the 1980s.
While it wasn't a manual, last year, I looked at an '83 Euro Mercedes 230TE wagon with a columnshift automatic - something I've never seen in any US-market W123.

Happy Motoring, Mark

I had no idea five speeds could work on the column, but why not. In the shop "tranny manual" the column shifters are shown but I have yet too see one. I spoz another factor in the "floor shifter" popularity, besides being faster for the drag racers, was the "coolness" of bucket seats now making room for a shifter instead of your girlfriend.

[JEBalles]

Just a little tidbit, if anyone watched Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution, he drove a column-shift Land Rover, which I thought was interesting.

Originally Posted by Army

When you are sitting in traffic - and you do a lot of that here - auto is the way to go. On empty twisty mountain roads I'd pick a manual.

If I ever move to a place with hills I'd love a Top Gear flappy paddle gearbox!

You just need more practice with a stick. Do you put the lever in neutral when stopped?

I expect that I EASILY have a million and a half miles driving stick shift vehicles. After you reach a certain experience level, it's as natural as breathing and you never even think about it anymore. I've driven tens of thousands of miles in stop, move a car length forward, stop...... I never even think about it.

I have enough stick experience that when a friend of mine invited me fishing with him a few years ago, I drove his GMC five speed truck and boat trailer that I was totally unfamiliar with up a steep ramp and parked it then walked to the boat. He commented that he was very impressed because I didn't slip the clutch too much and didn't roll backwards even an inch.

My level of experience with a clutch reminds me of a friends Dad who was in his eighties. My friend was giving me flying lessons in his Aeronca Champ, an old stick control tail dragger. It takes lots of experience to land one of these gracefully. There was a certain air speed to maintain on landing. His Dad, probably a 20,000 hour pilot took it up and flew it around while we watched. He brought it in with the most beautiful three point landing anyone could ever hope for. He taxied over to us and was getting out and I asked him what speed he used for landing. He said, "I have no idea, I just brought it in and flared it out."

There is no substitute for practice and experience. The skill of driving a stick shift is NOTHING as sophisticated as the old man's flying skill, but my clutch skill is at the same level within the task as his flying skill.

Practice makes perfect.

[Mark DiSilvestro]

Originally Posted by Stevo

I had no idea five speeds could work on the column, but why not. In the shop "tranny manual" the column shifters are shown but I have yet too see one. I spoz another factor in the "floor shifter" popularity, besides being faster for the drag racers, was the "coolness" of bucket seats now making room for a shifter instead of your girlfriend.

I never heard of a 5-speed columnshift until several years ago, when I read a magazine article about '50s Alfas. Here they're mostly known for their sportscars, but in Europe they sold a whole range of vehicles, including sedans, wagons, trucks and busses. When first introduced, many considered the columnshift to be a big improvement over a floorshift, plus it allowed a center passenger in the front seat. By the 1950s the columnshift was all the rage, both here and in Europe. So naturally, Alfa offered columnshift 5-speeds on some of their vehicles.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[JB3]

Just saw a late 80s jeep wrangler with a column shift 5-speed yesterday. Never even heard of such a setup so late and on a wrangler! Think it was an 89

Was at a jeep place, might have been a custom deal, it was pretty neat though.

[JB3]

Originally Posted by LarryBible

You just need more practice with a stick. Do you put the lever in neutral when stopped?

No offense, but im gonna go on record and say that it seems unlikely to me that someone who is 80 would be better at driving a stick than someone who is 40, or someone who is 25. I believe that if you don't know how to properly drive a stick within 1 year of starting, an additional 30 years won't make you that much better.
Jumping in another car should take you around the block or two to familiarize yourself with the feel of a different clutch application.

I agree with you that I don't mind driving a stick in traffic either, its just second nature, but to others it may be annoying. I don't think that if Army finds it annoying it automatically makes him less familiar with driving a stick though. Its just his preference it seems.

i know personally that I got rid of more than one 5-speed pickup because of clutch pedal application pressure effects on a blown out left knee, switching to a lighter car clutch.

[Mark DiSilvestro]

Originally Posted by dropnosky

Just saw a late 80s jeep wrangler with a column shift 5-speed yesterday. Never even heard of such a setup so late and on a wrangler! Think it was an 89

Was at a jeep place, might have been a custom deal, it was pretty neat though.

Can't imagine anything American, built that recently, with a manual columnshift. Should've taken a picture!

Happy Motoring, Mark

Originally Posted by dropnosky

No offense, but im gonna go on record and say that it seems unlikely to me that someone who is 80 would be better at driving a stick than someone who is 40, or someone who is 25. I believe that if you don't know how to properly drive a stick within 1 year of starting, an additional 30 years won't make you that much better.
Jumping in another car should take you around the block or two to familiarize yourself with the feel of a different clutch application.

I agree with you that I don't mind driving a stick in traffic either, its just second nature, but to others it may be annoying. I don't think that if Army finds it annoying it automatically makes him less familiar with driving a stick though. Its just his preference it seems.

i know personally that I got rid of more than one 5-speed pickup because of clutch pedal application pressure effects on a blown out left knee, switching to a lighter car clutch.

I guess I'm just an extremely slow learner then. After I had been driving a stick a year, it was NOT second nature to me. Now, no matter what stick shift vehicle I get in, I drive it without consciously thinking about it.

I think I was almost as good with a stick at that point, but it was due to conscious effort.

I don't need to drive an unfamiliar vehicle around the block. I can feel a clutch the first time although I will be releasing the clutch rather slowly.

You have my curiosity fired up now. How old are you?

[cirrusman]

It never felt annoying to me to drive a manual tranny in traffic or hilly terrain... Once you get used to it, your brain does all the shifting kind of automatically, and unless you focus your attention to it, it kind of happens by itself... just like riding a bike.