So when does a Metric Motors Engine make sense?
 

Hi all,

My '82 is a Texas rust free car (a rarity up here). It has low compression on 2 cylinders (220 on #4, 240 on #5) and a lot of blow-by. The real issue is that it doesnt start below 32 degrees w/o a block heater. Right now I don't drive it in the winter to keep it rust free (and it doesnt start anyways in the cold).

I have reworked and rebuilt nearly every other car system back to new. I am now pondering getting an engine (new or used) for it so it can be reliable in the winter (and not smoke the rest of the time). The goal is to keep and drive the car as long as I can.

Who has bought a Metric longblock before? Why you'd go that route over rolling the dice on a used motor?


dd

" So when does a Metric Motors Engine make sense?"

When you compare the price and quality of a new car epically if everything but the engine is good:)

Main reason not to is because you can roll the dice on a used motor 10x before it adds up to a metric motors one.

The motor is 3 times what the car is worth, it doesn't make sense.

It's the cost of knowing you have a rebuilt engine versus the risk of buying on with some amount of mileage and a dubious maintenance history.

If you have the money to burn and like your car very much then jump on it. Otherwise I bet you can find a nice OM617 on ebay :cool:

I bought a used engine for my 300D last time; I ended up with a good engine after plenty of hassle and I was without the car for a couple of months. Next time it needs an engine, I will just call metric and buy a long block. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

It makes sense if you like the car a lot, committed on keeping it long term (forever) and you can afford it.





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leak down test
 

Find a used 617 and do a leak-down test.

exactly my thoughts. there is an old saying, "there is the PRICE and then there is the COST". the COST of jerking around trying to locate a suitable used engine versus purchasing one from a reputable engine builder like Metric is night and day.

what is your time worth?

and then there is the peace of mind of knowing the engine will be good for quite some time. if you are planning on keeping the car then the new metric engine makes perfect sense. if you trade the car, you might be trading one set of problems for another and you will still be where you are now.

you know the history behind your own car. you don't know the real history behind one you purchase from someone else.

If you don't drive the car in the winter to keep it rust-free, it shouldn't matter that it won't start in the cold, you aren't driving it then anyway. I advise you to do nothing until the engine won't start at all. In the meantime, watch for cars that have been junked due to collision damage and get a good used engine from one of them. Metric Motors does good work but their rebuilt 617 long block is $7850 plus shipping from California to Boston. While your time is indeed worth something, you can afford to wait for the right donor vehicle to come along. Make sure to do a compression/leakdown test before buying.

if it was me, I'd look for a car wash that has a strong under body spray along with my own wheel well water sprayer. once or twice a week, give the under body a thorough bath. after the metric motors install, I'd drive the car 12 months a year.

You could rebuild your Engine or buy a used one and rebuilt that Engine for less.

Of course the other used Engine option is to buy another Car (but rusted) that you can test drive; in the Winter and make sure the Engine is good and use that Engine.

7800.00!?
 

For a long block? That seems like an awful lot. I've built balanced and blue-printed Chevy hot rod motors for quite a bit less. What is it about the 617 that is so expensive? Is the long block brand new? I'd guess if you supply a core, that it is not. Good machine shop work costs the same as a Chevy. I wonder what parts are replaced with brand new ones? Just what do you get for eight grand?

Unfortunately it's true
 

Yes, plus $500 core charge! The Metric Motors web site describes what they do. Remember that these are Los Angeles prices.

Even worse, the 603 engine is $8900 plus $1200 core!

The warranty is pretty good (given that you would have to pull the engine and return it to them, presumably at your expense):

"1983 - Current 4 years or 50,000 miles
PRE 1974 18 months unlimited mileage
1974-1982 3 years or 36,000 miles
Type 601, 602, 603 3 years or 36,000 miles."

A couple of years ago I had a local shop quote me $2500 to rebuild my 603 engine, including R&R. They probably replace parts only if they're badly worn or damaged; Metric probably replaces (for example) pistons whether they need it or not. If they use a lot of new factory parts, that would partly explain the high prices.

Jeremy

Well..
 

My view of things has changed over the years. Once, I always wanted the best deal, always. In the past it seemed there were LOTS of competent business people vying for the same job. Now I struggle to find someone to
provide what I need, at ANY price. So I guess sometimes, if I can rely on
a vendor I'll pay a premium, but only IF they are consistently reliable on a long term basis,hehhe, i.e., once you are "in" I'll pay the price. I wonder if you had a problem, MM would really fix it no problem? If so, then perhaps
the price is fair. It's about 40% high imho. I never pay for an extra warranty
on anything. I guess MM includes it in the price. I'm not knocking their business model. If they are honest, I'd look into them, if I needed a motor,
however, since if they fail, I still have to take out and ship a whole motor, at my expense, and put another one back, I might as well just buy 3 junkyard
motors and take a chance,hehe.

It makes sense if you pay for the R & R and cannot afford to have the vehicle down for more than three days and absolutely are unwilling to do it twice (or thrice).

Otherwise, a roll of the dice on an engine with 150K would probably be a better financial decision.

You don't install it if it's not good. These things can run outside of the car, plus you do a compression test.

For the price of MM you could buy a nice 123 and a good used engine, use the 123 you just bought while you're paying to have the engined installed in your car, and then sell the other 123 you just bought to have while you were waiting to have the used engine installed in your car (or keep it and still be money ahead of MM).

That MM engine is a lot of moolah.

Thank you all for all the opinions and points of view. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, I can get a lot of stuff for $7800. I guess it doesn't make sense, at least not now. Plus if i got a new motor...wouldnt i want a new transmission and turbo anyways? It could become $12k REAL fast.

I just haven't seen a lot of good low-ish mileage engine donor type cars. Time to look harder...time is on my side. Theres no rush. Thats why i'm thinking about this now, and not when it's an emergency.

Can you buy, and if so how much, a new crate 617 from MB?

I agree that a used engine will always be cheaper, but I wouldn't do it again. Messing around with junkyard engines (and the crooks who sell them) is just more trouble than it's worth. I spent too many hours on the phone to justify the savings. Also, I don't really know how much life is left in my "new" engine (it's doing fine after 100k, but you never know). It is getting pretty difficult to find a good 150k mile engine, most have closer to 300k.

Honestly, if I wasn't willing to pay for a reman engine; I would probably just buy a newer car (and you know how much I dislike newer cars).

If you buy a long block you could swap it in and out of cars

after the other systems die around the reman engine for the next 30 years

part the cars keep the engine

If it's me I would buy a used one (after checking it over good)
pull my engine and rebuild it myself while I drive on the used one.


Or as I will do in the future
If my body is in great shape ECT.

and the motors bad

put a 383 stroker or an LS in there it will be cheaper than a 8K long block

I want to put a LS in a wagon ....sleeper!

I'd look for a good used engine. Many cars are available on Craigslist with perfectly fine running engines at much less than the reman engines. They are easy enough to check out before you spend the cash. Besides, doesn't everyone need a parts car or 3?

I agree , I looked on craigslist for 6 months . I finally found the 83' with a blown transmission for 600.00 engine runs great (knock on wood ). The wife doesn't even mind the parts car being around when she seen how much parts cost.

If your weighing the engine against a new car think Kia Rio for that price :eek:
For that matter I would definitely take the engine.

The engines are not to bad to change so your existing car would not have to be the final resting place.

I totally agree with both you guys. I would rather spend 8K on a new engine for my nice rust free MB than buy one of the little "disposable crapmobles". When your done with the engine install you have something that will last and be comfortable and enjoyable to drive. :P:rolleyes:

I've done both - that is I had one engine overhauled, (472 c.i. Caddy) and it started running like cr@p soon after. And, I had a long-block, (351 c.i. Ford) re-manufactured engine installed. The re-manufactured, was the better choice versus the overhaul for me. And the long-block at the time, not all that more money. However, I suspect an MB re-manufactured engine to be sky-high in dollars. On junkyard/donor car's engines, it's a dice-roll, but cheaper.......way cheaper.

i would purchase a new VW golf TDI with 6spd manual transmission and drive the crap out of it.

Only reasonable solution
 

The consensus seems to be that if you found a really cherry car with good paint, no rust, nice interior, good transmission, and all accessories working but a trashed engine due to some failure (oil pump?) and you could pick up the car for under $1000 and you planned to keep the car for many years, then it might be worth spending $8000 on an engine.

Interesting that we haven't heard from charmalu in Soquel [Santa Cruz, CA]; he put a Metric Motor in his 300D and has been very happy. His signature reads, in part,

"85 300D Turbo 330949 miles eng. go bang :( 7/4/07 :deadhorse:
new Metric Motor engine yeah. :thumbup: 29,651 mi so far"

Jeremy

$0.02
 

It only makes sense if money is NO object. Even if you intend to keep the car for a long long time and try to amortize the costs, there are many risks that could derail you.

You have an 'upside down' car, i.e., the engine is worth more than the whole car and you will never get an insurance company to pay out the money if you total it. The other part of the car may break before the engine. You may need to consider full insurance coverage instead of just 3rd party for an old car. No major accident for the rest of the life of the car. In short, it is not worth it.

To me it's simple, I would rather pay $8000 for an engine than write a $60K check for a new car that will depreciate by $20K in a couple of years. If you are looking for cheap transportation, find a nice used ricer.

WOW, we have some well-to-do members here. Don't even blink an eye lid to write a $8K or $60K check.

the TDI's run about $25K. i've been looking for something to take from dallas to austin every other weekend for the wife.

That's not the point, a $8000 engine is cheaper than a reliable car that will last many years. A $500 used engine is a gamble, especially if you are paying to have it installed.

That's a perfectly reasonable choice for a daily driver. I'm currently shopping for something similar for my daughter to use.

Thanks for al the replies again...

I think Im now in the used engine camp. If some idiot crashes into me here with my new motor the insurance system will screw me over big time here in MA.

Im not in an emergency, I can have the car down for a while (we have a third car we both hate driving - good ol Camry). So I guess Im in the market for a used motor. Oh boy.

I will install it myself, so its not as much of a monetary gamble, but more of a time commitment gamble.

I want to get a running wrecked car, or a running rusty car. I want to hear it purr before I sink all the time into it. No junkyard dealings with motors already out of the body. I loathe all junkyards I have had to deal with thus far in my brief wrenching career.

if your dealings has you searching far and wide. (shouldn't be a problem to find a running rust wreck in your neck of the woods) I find them all the time.

vstech, how do you find you cars? all i've got is craigslist for the most part...

I know a benz mechanic or two, Ill put the word out.

I have looked at craigslist for the past few years and have only come across a handful of good used engine candidates. Forum member JEBalles has one of them...

I'll give you a little secret about craigslist when you finish checking Mercedes type in mercedez. That's what mine was under . It was in the auto parts section.

Me and the wife found plenty some real memorable moments as well.
On one occasion I swore I heard banjos :eek:
I found the one we bought 10 miles from the house drove it home with a blown transmission engine purrs.

Happy hunting !!

It would be lunacy to spend $8000 bucks on an uninstalled engine! Seriously! Unless you are loaded.
Tyler sold his whole beautiful car for just over half that. :eek: For half of that long block you can buy a really nicely sorted out WHOLE CAR!!
If my white wagon was totaled tomorrow then there would be a super nice engine for somebody {probably me} that would be very worthy to install in another car.
You just have to find it. For that $$$$ I could go through that hassle. Plus, that search adds memory equity...... ;)
Now look, a brand new engine would be wonderful, but just doesn't fit with my education level..... :o:o

Trust me Jimmy, I did it last year and it's more than $8000 worth of hassle. There are very few actual low mileage 25 year old engines around at any given time. There are plenty of pretty decent 300k mile engines that claim to be low mileage; until you run carfax on the doner car. It took me about 3 months and 3 engines to find one in good shape and have it installed. I also spent several more months arguing over the shipping charges for one of the "warrentied" engines that I had shipped back. I eventually spent about $3000 and ended up with a good used engine, but it was a giant PITA. Next time I'm calling metric.

Good idea! :D

I bought my '83 in February for $600 with a blown engine. The people had a "good" engine they gave me with the car that just needed to be installed. They don't know anything about cars and they got it from an older friend of theirs who got sick and couldn't fix the car. I thought ok well this must be a good engine.... NOT!

I did all the work to swap the engine and it knocked like crazy. Probably bad bearings or a rod/piston something "bad". I found a '85 federal car with 135k miles that had been hit in the front quarter on craigslist and picked it up for the engine/tranny. Definitely make sure you can run the engine before you buy. My other engine checked out ok for compression but knocked like crazy.

The only "good" part about my experience is I'm pretty good at removing and installing the 617's now haha...

Definitely keep your eye out for a good deal. I got another car we're fixing up for my mom off craigslist for $500. 186k miles from the original owner. He just rebuilt the tranny, injection pump and injectors, then got in a small accident and totalled the car. All it needs is a fender and hood and the passenger side headlight. The good deals are out there you just have to be "lucky" I guess :D

Only when I win the lottery. While they are great motors, I cannot justify the price. I'll do the work myself, thank you very much.

I did buy my reconditioned connecting rods from Metric. Service was great. They actually sent out the rods for a 3.5 liter instead of the 3.0, but they sent out a new set right away without waiting for the returned parts.

8K for a long block? as in no head? um, no...
if that included a fully rebuilt head, and a full warranty, it may be worth it.
it's amazing how peppy these motors are with new valves! starts before you touch the key almost...

That's a surprise?

That would be a short block.

A long block is everything except externals (starter, alternator, injection pump, etc.)

IIRC, the Metric Motors long block come with the IP installed as well.

Yes they do come with a rebuilt IP.




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So what are the Alternatives for company rebuilts?
 

I know two companies... but no first hand experience with them.

-Adsitco -- The forum's favorite company!:eek: gag


-Remanufactured.com

http://www.remanufactured.com/Mercedes_Engines.htm

They have long blocks (don't know if includes the IP) for $3,990.00.
I've wondered what's their reputation?


So are there any other companies out there?



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The Metrics DO come with an IP, head and all the usual long block items.

No turbo though. It would only make sense to splurge and get a $900 rebuilt turbo with a new engine.

....

OK, I have been swayed off the Metric idea for sure. On to the used engine adventure! Ill go for anything sub 200k that looks good. Already mated to a good running transmission a major plus, but not necessary.

Ill probably wait a year to do this anyways - its not an emergency and I dont have proper facilities. Come September I am in grad school again, during which I have barely enough time to do basic living activities...

There's no right answer to this one, only the right answer for you and your circumstances. My opinion is put a new MB long engine in it and replace the ancillaries while you're at it but the value of the car to me far exceeds "book value" so I don't care. If I felt differently about the car I would absolutely go to the PNP and grab a used ending for $350 and roll the dice and not look back.

One thing though, you know the odometers start slipping so who knows what the mileage really is on a used engine.

Bottom line: This is a question only you can answer.