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  #16  
Old 10-02-2010, 09:33 PM
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Billybob, thanks so much for that writeup ... it's really a huge help, more helpful than the FSM so far!
Unfortunately I'm stuck on getting the subframe mounts out of the replacement subframe. I've tried making a tool out of a harbor freight bearing puller bracket mounted on a long bolt and large washers and a nut, but the bracket is not strong enough, plus I can't find a washer that will push on the bottom of the mount evenly (it just kind of squishes it down) ... I'll try the pipe and plate method if I can find anything at Home Depot. I just wish the puller tool was available for rent in the tool rental list. I'm going to spend the next week just trying to make a tool and I'm really not good at that sort of thing, even though I have the basic idea in my mind. Frustrating.

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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2010, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987 View Post
Billybob, thanks so much for that writeup ... it's really a huge help, more helpful than the FSM so far!
Unfortunately I'm stuck on getting the subframe mounts out of the replacement subframe. I've tried making a tool out of a harbor freight bearing puller bracket mounted on a long bolt and large washers and a nut, but the bracket is not strong enough, plus I can't find a washer that will push on the bottom of the mount evenly (it just kind of squishes it down) ... I'll try the pipe and plate method if I can find anything at Home Depot. I just wish the puller tool was available for rent in the tool rental list. I'm going to spend the next week just trying to make a tool and I'm really not good at that sort of thing, even though I have the basic idea in my mind. Frustrating.
Damn! Sorry, I usually tend to shy away from directly promoting the rental of my tools in threads I respond to, a little too self-serving. I figure if someone is looking for a tool to rent they will find it in the Tool Rental Thread, but I haven't listed the Klann tool for removing the rear sub-frame bushing mounts on 124/129/201 vehicles which I have available!

The proper tool, although it is designed to be used with the sub-frame still on the vehicle and it does a great job doing so, can of course be used directly on the mounts with the subframe off the vehicle also.

The mounts can be extremely difficult to remove as the outer rubber almost fuses to the sub-frame and every time you attempt to pull it the rubber just stretches. As I mentioned in the past I've applied fire to the area of the subframe into which the mount installs, once the area is hot enough, usually rubber in flames! The burning mount can be more easily removed (but flaming, melting, napalm-like rubber drops not withstanding)! Then after the destruction you can clean and repaint that area.

If you decide the correct tool is the way you want to proceed PM me and I'll send you the rental particulars, you could have it in about two days.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2010, 11:55 PM
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best cheater in the world is the floor jack handle... simple and easy, and most everyone working on cars has one.
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  #19  
Old 10-03-2010, 03:57 AM
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Excellent Post/Replys

This whole Post (In Conjunction with GSXR's Photos ) should be a DIY "STICKY".
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:16 PM
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Just a little update: Thanks to Billybob, Timfreeh and hanno, I have been able to make some strides using the factory tools. Everything is off the replacement subframe, and I spent over an hour yesterday sanding, degreasing and scrubbing clean the frame. Tomorrow I'll touch up with black POR15. For the most part the frame looks good.

I did have to sawzall off one arm where the bolt had frozen to the bushing. And the front subframe mounts, even with the official tool, were a bear (but boy did that tool make the rear ones easy!!) ... one of them exploded and shot black oil in every direction. I had wondered if the mounts had a fluid in them like the motor mounts, but wouldn't have expected a thin black oil.

Anyhow, after the center of each bushing was out via the tool, I used a punch, screwdriver and pry bar (plus torch) to carefully pry out the shell of the bushing. The large bushings came out great.
So, after the paint dries I'll put all the new bits on the frame. Of course the intimidating part is actually dropping and replacing the frame on the car. I'm debating putting that part off until the end of the month. I have a trip to Virginia (four-hour drive) I'd like to make on Oct. 26 and 27, and I know if I drop the frame I'll likely have several delays and won't have the car for then. On the other hand, I hesitate to drive it so far with the diff mounts in such poor condition. It drives great, other than drifting a bit at 70-80 mph. But still, kind of worries me. I'd like to work up the guts to drop it this weekend, but knowing how things go with me, something will get stuck, broken, lost ... and the car will be up on jackstands for three weeks.
One step at a time ... I'll post an update when I get the replacement frame done.
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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #21  
Old 10-16-2010, 04:48 PM
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New question!
I was giving the FSM a thorough read last night and noticed for re-installation of the bolts holding the subframe to the floor it says "re-cut thread on frame floor." I haven't heard this mentioned elsewhere. Is it necessary and what exactly does it entail?
Also, should I replace the three flex disc nuts I remove? I just did the driveshaft in April but I know they're self-locking so maybe I should get new ones.

Edit to add more Qs:
-Each bolt kit comes with three bolts, one hex head and two 12pt allen heads. Sorry to be thick, but which am I supposed to use? There are only two places to put bolts on each arm as far as I know.
-The arms come without the centering sleeves installed, but I have them separate. The FSM shows them already installed, so I'm not sure how to put them on the end of the arm. Do I just tap them in or is there any science to it?
-How far should I press the differential bushings in? I was very careful with the clocking, but not sure how far to go in ... the FSM uses the pressing in tool as a reference but the tool I am using is slightly different. On my subframe and the spare subframe, the mounts were at completely different depths, so I can't really use that as a reference because one of them must have been wrong.
-If I can get a good purchase on the bolt, is there any reason I can't break loose the rear subframe bolts with the car on the ground? Then tighten them by hand, raise car and proceed. The front bolts look decent. The rear ones look like a nightmare waiting to happen. Does having the weight off the frame help break them loose? Because I think I may have enough leverage with it on the ground.

Thanks. Overwhelmed by this right now; it's just making me feel stupid.
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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Last edited by BodhiBenz1987; 10-16-2010 at 07:53 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-17-2010, 04:15 PM
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A little progress ... I finally stopped staring at stuff and actually dug in. I got ALL four subframe bolts to turn! The rear ones really worried me because they are very corroded and a bit deformed. I Kroiled them, then used a pointy punch to scrape the base of each side so the socket would fit all the way on. Because I was so afraid the socket would slip and strip the bolt, I placed a scissor jack underneath the head of the breaker bar to keep pressure on the bit while I stood back with a pipe extension and pushed. It worked! Attached a pic.
Now I'm going to remove the wheel carriers (or try) and all the bits and pieces before lowering the frame.
I'm having some trouble the with exhaust, specifically the hardware holding the assembly on at the middle (four bolts/nuts). The nuts won't turn for anything and are sort of stripping. They look like they have a little collar on the outside of them. Any trick to this or are they just seized on? I sprayed Kroil and will try again in a bit.
ALSO, do you think it would be OK to remove the axle nut with an impact wrench? I don't know if I'll have much luck getting that off ... that's a lot of torque, man. I'm almost afraid to try.
Attached Thumbnails
A subframe question (just the beginning ...)-sub1.jpg  
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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #23  
Old 10-17-2010, 05:09 PM
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Ugh ... when I push really hard on the axle nut, it overcomes the parking brake. Is that a sign I need to tighten my parking brake? I haven't taken the calipers off yet so should I just use a board or pipe to hold down the actual brakes?
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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2010, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987 View Post
Ugh ... when I push really hard on the axle nut, it overcomes the parking brake. Is that a sign I need to tighten my parking brake? I haven't taken the calipers off yet so should I just use a board or pipe to hold down the actual brakes?
The 30 mm 12 point nut? I assume that you don't have a 1/2" drive impact gun? The parking brake will never hold it! If so you will need to use a couple wheel bolts screwed into the hub and a piece of pipe or something similar to brace the hub from turning. Break out or bend out the collar of the nut from the cut on the axle stub, to allow it to turn easier. Then you can use a large breaker bar possibly a pipe extension on that! In my experience the best thing to do is to heat the nut too hot to touch with a propane torch and then while it is still hot put the tool to it, keep the tool straight and square to the nut and put your weight to it.

The working surface of the nut is pretty thin so if you have a socket with significant radius at its opening you can grind off that radius to allow more of the tool working surface to make more and better contact with the nut's surfaces.
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987 View Post
A little progress ... I finally stopped staring at stuff and actually dug in. I got ALL four subframe bolts to turn! The rear ones really worried me because they are very corroded and a bit deformed. I Kroiled them, then used a pointy punch to scrape the base of each side so the socket would fit all the way on. Because I was so afraid the socket would slip and strip the bolt, I placed a scissor jack underneath the head of the breaker bar to keep pressure on the bit while I stood back with a pipe extension and pushed. It worked! Attached a pic.
Now I'm going to remove the wheel carriers (or try) and all the bits and pieces before lowering the frame.
I'm having some trouble the with exhaust, specifically the hardware holding the assembly on at the middle (four bolts/nuts). The nuts won't turn for anything and are sort of stripping. They look like they have a little collar on the outside of them. Any trick to this or are they just seized on? I sprayed Kroil and will try again in a bit.
ALSO, do you think it would be OK to remove the axle nut with an impact wrench? I don't know if I'll have much luck getting that off ... that's a lot of torque, man. I'm almost afraid to try.
Read and answered your latest post first! Good job on the sub frame mount bolts. Getting them out without problems is an important accomplishment!

The exhaust bolts should be considered sacrificial, just break out the angle grinder with a thin blade and be done with them! Or just break them by over-torquing them but sometimes you just bust the nut or the head off and you've got to hammer things apart then anyway, cutting the bolts between the flanges gets things apart and you can deal with the nuts and bolt stubs separately. When you put things back together slather the new bolts and nuts with Permatex Never-Seize!

I would very much recommend just disconnecting the just the rear sway bar, the driveshaft and hanging the calipers and then dropping the entire sub frame assembly as a unit. You will be able to get to all the link ends bushings etc. so much easier with it on the ground and out from under the car, especially if something gives you a problem. Get that stuff disconnected, get your jack under the differential and raise it a touch then remove the sub frame mount bolts. When you remove the front ones the entire sub frame tends to want to swing downwards, I just place a scissors jack under the front of the differential and crank that up to support it evenly in place. That way after the front bolts are removed the subframe is not hanging and causing the rear mounts to be twisted forwards and harder to drop free. Just remember to disconnect the ABS sensor before dropping things, they break and they’re expensive!
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  #26  
Old 10-17-2010, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
I would very much recommend just disconnecting the just the rear sway bar, the driveshaft and hanging the calipers and then dropping the entire sub frame assembly as a unit. You will be able to get to all the link ends bushings etc. so much easier with it on the ground and out from under the car, especially if something gives you a problem. Get that stuff disconnected, get your jack under the differential and raise it a touch then remove the sub frame mount bolts. When you remove the front ones the entire sub frame tends to want to swing downwards, I just place a scissors jack under the front of the differential and crank that up to support it evenly in place. That way after the front bolts are removed the subframe is not hanging and causing the rear mounts to be twisted forwards and harder to drop free. Just remember to disconnect the ABS sensor before dropping things, they break and they’re expensive!
The only concern I had with dropping the whole thing is the added weight ... the sub and diff by itself don't scare me nearly as much as the whole thing with the wheel carriers. Although I guess I would not have to be underneath it. I liked the idea you posted earlier of putting the car back on the ground and lifting it off the frame, but I don't have a way of jacking up the car evenly and getting jackstands under it.
If I do drop the whole thing (which is starting to appeal to me), should I still break loose the axle nut while it's on the car? I'm thinking it would be really hard to do when it's on the loose frame on the floor. The pipe and lugnut idea sounds like it will work, plus torching. I do have an impact wrench my dad is going to lend me, and an air compressor ... but I'll try heating it and using the breaker bar and pipe again first.
I'll pick up the exhaust bolts at the dealer tomorrow, plus I'm going to order carrier bearers ... for some reason I thought those were OK, but one looks really bad on closer inspection, better change 'em now while I'm digging in.
Thanks!!!
__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2010, 08:44 PM
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ugh! I hope you REALLY like all that snow and cold up in mile high area! you should go over with us what you are doing to the replacement subframe for rust preventative. pics of the cleaning and treating with por-15, underbody spray if any, etc. (while, I'll never need any of these tips down here in the piedmont of NC, it's nice!)
I don't think a 1/2" impact will get those axle bolts, perhaps a 3/4" or like said, brace the lugs, and use a cheater bar on there!
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by vstech View Post
ugh! I hope you REALLY like all that snow and cold up in mile high area! you should go over with us what you are doing to the replacement subframe for rust preventative. pics of the cleaning and treating with por-15, underbody spray if any, etc. (while, I'll never need any of these tips down here in the piedmont of NC, it's nice!)
I don't think a 1/2" impact will get those axle bolts, perhaps a 3/4" or like said, brace the lugs, and use a cheater bar on there!
Cleaning: Hosed off the subframe, brushing off the big clumps of dirt or oil. Then I took my power dremel with a couple different sanding bits and ground off the few areas that had surface rust. Then I used a couple different wire brushes to scrape off remaining rust, crud, oil, etc., and rough up the surface of the whole frame (took a looong time) while continually dousing with POR's Marine Clean and water. I gave it a final scrubbing with the Marine Clean and a scrub brush. Then I painted it with POR 15 black ... very careful to get it in crevasses (but NOT inside the mount cups or diff mount holes ... did not want to alter the way they fit in there!). It looks like a spanking new part:


As for the underbody of the car ... I will assess when I get the frame down, but I do know I will be doing some work on the protrusions where the front mounts attach. The undercoating is peeling off and I can see rust. I will remove the undercoating, scrap away and use the same POR15 black, plus undercoating on top (not where the mount actually touches). One issue I can see I'm going to have is separating the mounts from the frame ... the metal is rusted to it. Most other areas under the car (including where the rear mounts attach) look clean but I'll inspect more carefully when it's clear under there.
The rocker panels and jack points have to be addressed soon. I'm willing to pay to have someone do it; I just need to find someone. Bodyshops won't touch it because they "don't do restoration" and restoration guys have no interest because it's just an 87 sedan. But that's another story.
I think I'll throw a new muffler on while I've got everything down ... some big holes in the rear and a hole in the pipe going into it ... though I haven't noticed noise/smell/smoke.
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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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  #29  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987 View Post
The only concern I had with dropping the whole thing is the added weight ... the sub and diff by itself don't scare me nearly as much as the whole thing with the wheel carriers. Although I guess I would not have to be underneath it. I liked the idea you posted earlier of putting the car back on the ground and lifting it off the frame, but I don't have a way of jacking up the car evenly and getting jackstands under it.
If I do drop the whole thing (which is starting to appeal to me), should I still break loose the axle nut while it's on the car? I'm thinking it would be really hard to do when it's on the loose frame on the floor. The pipe and lugnut idea sounds like it will work, plus torching. I do have an impact wrench my dad is going to lend me, and an air compressor ... but I'll try heating it and using the breaker bar and pipe again first.
I'll pick up the exhaust bolts at the dealer tomorrow, plus I'm going to order carrier bearers ... for some reason I thought those were OK, but one looks really bad on closer inspection, better change 'em now while I'm digging in.
Thanks!!!
Yeah, breaking free the axle nut with everything still on the car will likely be easier than on the ground but not much, the same bolts & bar counter hold method will be needed. I can usually break the axle nuts free with a 1/2" gun without even bending the collar out, but I suppose that depends on the gun and the operating pressure. Try it with the gun first and if that doesn't work you've just got to go old school on it. Now's a good time to make use of the shopping cart you've been saving, cut the basket of and you've got a low to the ground cart! The carts they use under bread racks are perfect and you can get a cheapy moving dolly at home depot and harbor freight also.

The first thing I do is to remove the differential vent and screw a bolt into its place for the time being, that way you can flip the whole subframe over and not have differential fluid leaking out. Then get the lower control arms off that will give you easy access to the six bolts at the axle flange, get them out and pull the axles out of the way, mark what side they came from and you can swap them side to side if you want to. Then I'd do the differential get that out of the way. Then you can more easily flip the sub frame back over and get at everything holding the wheel carrier to the links.
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  #30  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
mark what side they came from and you can swap them side to side if you want to. Then I'd do the differential get that out of the way.
So you want to swap them from side to side? Is that just because they wear differently due to road pitch?

Glad you mentioned the vent on the diff ... I'm sure I would have found a way to spill gear oil everywhere.

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1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)
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