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  #31  
Old 03-15-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillytwotank View Post
"since all the new stuff is rated for 134a I'm not too concerned"

I'm interested in this. I'm running 86% original stock components in mine with r134a refrigerant. It's cold but not super cold. everything seems to operate smooth and quiet but i know a day will come when something is proly gonna blow out. In columbia sc!

tee would you share some of the sources for your components in your a/c rebuild?
Absolutely, and hopefully save some others time and money. With the exception of the MB Genuine parts and the Compressor I got everything from Pelican. A lot of parts didn't show up when searching by model but did by part number.

Originally I went with Behr lines since they were OEM with the exception of the condenser to drier, lower manifold line and large suction line, those were MB Genuine.

SO, the upper manifold line came and it was made in CHINA and the zinc cad plating was spotty. Since I didn't want to replace it again next year I didn't put it on and ordered MB Genuine for that one as well. All the other Behr hoses were Goodyear Galaxy R134a and made in the USA. All genuine hoses are r134a revision as well.

I went with a genuine expansion valve (only 134a available) after finding the "OEM" Engelhof I ordered was made in China. Genuine drier, aftermarket evaporator. I did not have to adjust the expansion valve for the ES 12a so that was nice.

On the pressure and temp switches I originally went with Behr pressure and I think Santec temp. Behr was made in Taiwan and Santech in China so those I switched to MB Genuine as well.

Compressor was a new 4Seasons unit and made in Texas, has been good so far. Actually ordered it from Advance for under $200. They actually call it a different brand but the compressor in the box is 4Seasons.

Even though most of the lines came with O-rings I ordered all those Genuine MB.

Oil capacity is 5.75 oz and I used PAG 150 with "ice32" or something like that. That oil cap and viscosity are for the R4 compressor, NOT the York.

Swapping the evaporator was the biggest PITA and honestly if I had it to do over again I wouldn't have bothered except for the fact that I had to replace all the foam on the distribution flaps..... so while I was in there why not?

I went with genuine MB vacuum elements as they were pretty much the same price as the Behr aftermarket ones.

The new grommet where the lines pass through the firewall was stupid @ $40 and the new one has neither the star or part number on it (MB Genuine) so I feel a little cheated. The part number on that is 1239971281 and the old one will pretty much fall apart on you.


Parts I could not find available aftermarket alternatives for:
Suction line from Expansion Valve to Manifold (~$130)
Condenser to drier hose (~$30)
Lower Manifold Line (~$150)
Grommet ($40)

I have no idea what I actually have in the project, especialy with all the duplicate parts, and really don't want to know for that matter. The Behr aftermarket hoses, switches, etc were substantially less than Genuine. About half I think. The genuine switches were outrageous compared to the others as well If I remember correctly it was something like $16 versus $75. I guess at least I have backups for the day parts are no longer available.

Anyway I hope that helps someone out, especially when making a decision on which way to go for parts.

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  #32  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WDBCB20 View Post
Exactly - the plural of anecdote is not data.
SOOO true and the internet just seems to perpetuate the problem!!

I weighed in my charge and added the "correct" (per MB literature anyway) 170cc / 5.75 oz of oil using a 30cc syringe. Since I know everything is by-the-book with the exception of refrigerant choice I'll be sure to keep an eye on pressure and update everyone once we hit the 100+ ambient days.
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  #33  
Old 03-15-2012, 08:19 PM
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Oil cap cited (5.75) sounds low for the W123 and R4 with a full rebuild.

I thought it was closer to 8 oz. The FSM has the volumes for oil by component replaced.

Was that 5.75 for the whole system, or just what was added into the R4, with more added elsewhere?

Oil type is also important to get the lubrication for the R4. You need to get the miscibility correct between the refrigerant oil. R-134a and R-12 are well researched, I'm not up to speed on the others.
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  #34  
Old 03-15-2012, 09:35 PM
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I've got experience doing a heater core and evaporator on a Gen. I W126. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I would pony up the money and buy Mercedes OEM. It's too much work to get crappy parts. There are OEM MB units (heater core and evap.) on EBay that are significantly cheaper than the dealer.

I finished this work in late autumn so I never had a great chance to test the A/C. However, it was blowing at around 38 F with ambient temps in the high 60s when I tested it. It was definitely much better than before I did the evaporator. There is so much crud that gets stuck in there which reduces airflow over the years. I chose to go with r134 since it is more mechanic friendly. I've had good experiences with it in the past and you will find mixed opinions on whether there is a significant difference between it and R12.
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  #35  
Old 03-15-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mbzjag8090 View Post
I chose to go with r134 since it is more mechanic friendly. I've had good experiences with it in the past and you will find mixed opinions on whether there is a significant difference between it and R12.
opinions are not based on actual use and measurements between the two...

in warm climates (over 93F) with significant humidity, 134 is inadequate in 123's, and BARELY tolerable in 126's. 124's can work adequately with 134 refrigerant, but 12 is better.
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #36  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak View Post
Oil cap cited (5.75) sounds low for the W123 and R4 with a full rebuild.

I thought it was closer to 8 oz. The FSM has the volumes for oil by component replaced.

Was that 5.75 for the whole system, or just what was added into the R4, with more added elsewhere?

Oil type is also important to get the lubrication for the R4. You need to get the miscibility correct between the refrigerant oil. R-134a and R-12 are well researched, I'm not up to speed on the others.
I pulled the 170cc / 5.75 oz data from the FSM as the full capacity. The PAG viscosity of 150 was per 4seasons with the new compressor since, obviously, original spec was mineral. ES 12a is compatible with PAG, Mineral and, of course, Ester.

If I remember correctly the single component replacement / refrigerant top up specs ranged between 1 and 3 oz depending on component.

When out tooling around yesterday I remembered I should mention I think the decreased compressor load claims for ES 12a are BS or at least not noticeable with only 70 hp as drag when the compressor kicks in seem no less than with r12. Perhaps the claims were vs 134a which I can't comment on but r12 to ES 12a feels exactly the same when the compressor kicks in but the charge of ES 12a is substantially less than r12. I guess I can't really call BS without empirical data so maybe that's not fair but the butt-o-meter cries foul.
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  #37  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by vstech View Post
124's can work adequately with 134 refrigerant, but 12 is better.
The W124 I drove with factory 134 air seemed to do ok, though it wasn't as good as my Jetta. Gotta love variable displacement compressors

-J
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  #38  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vstech View Post
opinions are not based on actual use and measurements between the two...

in warm climates (over 93F) with significant humidity, 134 is inadequate in 123's, and BARELY tolerable in 126's...

Barely tolerable IF you're driving at least 40mph with the windows open and wearing shorts
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  #39  
Old 03-16-2012, 09:55 PM
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This is from experience with a 300 SD W126. The R134 has no noticeable difference. It works well in 90+ plus temperatures. Before I replaced the evaporator I was running R134 and it worked great. To the OP, if you search the forums you can find a number of people who live in the deep South and are very happy with R134. I do not doubt that R12 is slightly better and will admit that it seems R134 can be hit or miss, but the idea that R134 cannot be successful in a 126 is factually incorrect.
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  #40  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mbzjag8090 View Post
It works well in 90+ plus temperatures. Before I replaced the evaporator I was running R134 and it worked great.
You wouldn't happen to have any vent temperatures at 95F............would you?

Such data might confirm such a theory.............or not.
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  #41  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbzjag8090 View Post
This is from experience with a 300 SD W126. The R134 has no noticeable difference. It works well in 90+ plus temperatures. Before I replaced the evaporator I was running R134 and it worked great. To the OP, if you search the forums you can find a number of people who live in the deep South and are very happy with R134. I do not doubt that R12 is slightly better and will admit that it seems R134 can be hit or miss, but the idea that R134 cannot be successful in a 126 is factually incorrect.
... very cold temps are indeed attainable with a 126, however, everything needs to be in good tune, and you need to be moving at speed for it to be cool... city traffic, 95°F temps, and untreated windows, and forget it! you'll be sweating for sure.
with R12, the same well tuned a/c system will produce 38F vents at idle up to around 98F
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #42  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:19 AM
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I will get vent temps. this summer and let you all know.

The difference I will admit is a 5 degree difference at 98F. As I said, maybe it won't be blowing at 38 but it will still be perfectly good for what you need, even in places like FL. I drove this car in Pensacola for many a summer in perfect comfort. You're talking 100F plus humidity there in the summertime.

There is no way to have the exact difference until we have actual data though. So I will certainly get the numbers on the first hot day we have. It's got a new evaporator, expansion valve and drier so it will be interesting to see what a revamped system with R134 will generate.
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  #43  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:27 AM
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new evap? wow. did you replace the freeze switch? how's the condenser? I've got one from an 91 SDL, perfect fit, with MUCH smaller tubes, for better condensing action... bwuhahaha!
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!
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  #44  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tee51397 View Post
I pulled the 170cc / 5.75 oz data from the FSM as the full capacity. The PAG viscosity of 150 was per 4seasons with the new compressor since, obviously, original spec was mineral. ES 12a is compatible with PAG, Mineral and, of course, Ester.

If I remember correctly the single component replacement / refrigerant top up specs ranged between 1 and 3 oz depending on component.
Section 83-520 has

Oil for new compressor: 170 cc

Then later on has: 50/70/40 respectively for condensor/evap/RD, along with another number of 90 for "reconditioning" compressor.

I think I added 90+50+70+40 = 250 = ~ 8 oz; since I was replacing the condensor and the RD and the compressor and I flushed the whole system.
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  #45  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mbzjag8090 View Post
I will get vent temps. this summer and let you all know.

The difference I will admit is a 5 degree difference at 98F. As I said, maybe it won't be blowing at 38 but it will still be perfectly good for what you need, even in places like FL. I drove this car in Pensacola for many a summer in perfect comfort. You're talking 100F plus humidity there in the summertime.

There is no way to have the exact difference until we have actual data though. So I will certainly get the numbers on the first hot day we have. It's got a new evaporator, expansion valve and drier so it will be interesting to see what a revamped system with R134 will generate.
Is this excellence measured on the SD with an R4 compressor or with the SEL, with, presumably, the Nippondenso?

There is a world of difference between the two systems and you cannot claim excellence for the former if your data is based on the latter.

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