Question on flywheel balance, i screwed up. - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

junqueyardjim · #16 06-02-2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markp

Thanks,

Ok, I'll go with a regular 240D pilot bearing and try that. I think I'll still try to hone out that hole a bit too. having it come out hard in the future does not bother me, they always come out hard - or in pieces.

Did you spin your flywheel and determine how far off from true zero? I am just curious as to what others have found with 5cyl flex plates or 240D flywheels.

Many thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark: No marks, nothing! Put it on and put it on tight- Those flywheel bolts cost about $80.00 for the set and are" supposed" to be used only once. I think you take a good chance of breaking one at full torque with the wrench, but I know guys do re use them. But I use the 240D flywheel on my 617T, love the hp increase it seems to have. And I would forget the whole balance thing - but it could be wrong. I doubt it, but it could happen.

t walgamuth · #17 06-02-2012, 11:51 AM

the automatic and stick bolts are different lenghts. also some are stretch bolts and some are not. the stretch bolts can be re-used if they measure within factory allowable specs.

I seldom disagree with jim on mb facts but i do disagree with his statement about not torquing to specs. torque to specs even if you have to buy new bolts to feel safe. leaving them less than tight risks them coming loose. you don't want that!!!

junqueyardjim · #18 06-02-2012, 02:14 PM

No Tom, you did mis-read or I didn't state it correctly. Absolutely,you need to give them the factory rated load. If one breaks, and that can happen with used bolts, but like buddy Tom brought up, the flywheel requires the longer bolt. So get new ones and run them up tight, with a torque wrench, I believe in increments. Sorry for the confusion! Jim

Markp · #19 06-04-2012, 04:18 PM

Thanks for the info.

I spoke with the machine shop and they did not sound too interested in adding weight to it. Think I will just run it after bringing it back to zero.

Question though; I pulled the engine/trans, DS, shifter this morning (after spending hours rearranging stuff since I only have one bay. I had to kick my project car out which meant reinstalling rotors, wheels etc. Took longer then pulling the engine/trans in the MB!)

Anyway, I was wondering if perhaps MB installed the flexplates in the same position on these engines, based on TDC or ?

If so I'd be able to use the engine I pulled for reference and install in the same position. Sure would be nice...

junqueyardjim · #20 06-05-2012, 02:27 PM

No I don't think you can use the flex disc for any useable info, You will just have to bite the bullet like the rest of us cheaters. If you really want to guarantee the job, then spend your money at the speed shops and get it all calibrated. But you can only do that if you know the factory position on how the auto flywheel or any flywheel was mounted by the factory to the crank. I believe Mercedes manufacturing has the balance down pat and that very few need balance.

junqueyardjim · #21 06-05-2012, 02:44 PM

Did you freeze shrink the pilot bearing yet? Drive it in with a good shop hammer and a heavy duty socket. Measure the socket before you start. Make sure it will go all the way. Then mark the socket so you will know when it is seated all the way - that little bearing doesn't want any blows on it after it is seated! Talking about shrink fit, that is what I was considering for increase the weight of the flywheel. We have a steel junkyard a couple miles from here where a large part of the manufacturing steel and iron from the Indianapolis area ends up. I should measure that flywheel to see if I could find a piece of junk pipe large enough to turn a couple of rings from it. It would take a large lathe to do it, larger then most machine shops have, I think. But I really have no desire to walk through that yard lifting iron - too old, I can't do it anymore. My 300D does vibrate just a little more then I like especially when it is cold and all the windows are closed. So I just don't drive it then. If the window can be open a little, the vibration is not there and it is a joy to drive and runs like jack rabbit. The vibration is at between 25 and 37 in 4th gear, put it in 3rd and it is faster and perfect.

Markp · #22 06-05-2012, 05:04 PM

Oh man, just hit CNTL/something else accidently, deleted my whole post!

Recap:

removed trans from 82 engine and found FP to be in random spot at TDC, i was hoping maybe a pair of TQ bolts would be at 12:00 or something, thinking that they installed them all in the same position.

Oh well, I will zero it out and hope for the best. I'm contacting a Currier service to bring my FW 2.5 hrs back to machine shop, its only like 15 bucks.

I will bring the DS to a local machine shop who does good DS work, but does not balance (?). Oh well, thats what hose clamps are for?

I had to spend some time cleaning up today. No matter how well one drains everything, there is always a nasty puddle of a various fluids. This is an extremely dirty car to work on, I will clean it all up reasonbly well but it is work horse, not a show car.

I transferred some parts onto the 'new' engine, and installed the shifter into car ( i had to fell that shifting action to keep me inspired).

I measured T chain stretch with the cam mark method (I know, not entirely accurate) and found 2* at TDC, which is close to new. Not sure if I will replace it, but i am replacing Fr main seal, misc seals /gaskets, alternator, nozzles, belts, some hoses.

I order some stuff from pelican last night, now I'll have new flex joints, slave cyl, gaskets/belts/misc, FW bolts, pilot bearing, filters, etc

about 40K ago I completely rebuilt the front end installed SD vented brakes, new bearings, ect so hopefully I won't have to muck with that stuff again.

Iam also deleting AC on this car, I give up on making it work properly, can live with out it here anyway. The increase airflow to rad should be good, and easier to work on the car with that stuff gone.

I'll get some pics this week, maybe should start a thread for this car.

Than ks for the replies.

Markp · #23 06-05-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Did you freeze shrink the pilot bearing yet? Drive it in with a good shop hammer and a heavy duty socket. Measure the socket before you start. Make sure it will go all the way. Then mark the socket so you will know when it is seated all the way - that little bearing doesn't want any blows on it after it is seated! Talking about shrink fit, that is what I was considering for increase the weight of the flywheel. We have a steel junkyard a couple miles from here where a large part of the manufacturing steel and iron from the Indianapolis area ends up. I should measure that flywheel to see if I could find a piece of junk pipe large enough to turn a couple of rings from it. It would take a large lathe to do it, larger then most machine shops have, I think. But I really have no desire to walk through that yard lifting iron - too old, I can't do it anymore. My 300D does vibrate just a little more then I like especially when it is cold and all the windows are closed. So I just don't drive it then. If the window can be open a little, the vibration is not there and it is a joy to drive and runs like jack rabbit. The vibration is at between 25 and 37 in 4th gear, put it in 3rd and it is faster and perfect.

Interesting, I was thinking of something similar to add weight. I was going to try a 3/16" x 1/2" W bar around the FW, toward clutch side. I was thinking of welding on the starting point, and heating/wrapping it around FW then weld the other side, tack it every inch or so, then balance. Not sure about this method though, and not sure if it is worth the effort.

I would hope that MB had these well balanced internally. Audi 5cyls for example are some of the best balanced engines in stock form, capable of smooth 8K rpm with stock internals. I had my Audi FW balanced since it was getting resurfaced, but it made no difference (and only goes on one way!), always has run very smooth at high RPMs. But, the 617 diesel is a much different beast, just saying that geneally speaking German stuff has the best factory balance, hopefully the FP balnce on these was just for minor corrections. This aint no Ford!

Thanks for the tip on the pilot, i will try this but will also try honing it for an hour or four.

junqueyardjim · #24 06-05-2012, 06:19 PM

Well, it is your vehicle. I totally fail to see any benefit in honing the bore. It will go in as I described it. Hand honing is unreliable at best. Do you have any instruments to guide you? It comes from the manufacturer with a very straight hole. Leave it. If you think you need more tolerance, set a propane flame in the hole for half an hour or whatever you think will help. You don't need it, but it will increase the bore size. Don't give it so much heat that you ruin the front seal. How much heat is that? I don't know. But trust me, it will go in. Just use a good 7/8 or 15/16 thick wall socket and a good heavy shop hammer and just stick it in the bore and don"t stop until it is in all the way. If you have to carry it quite a distance from the freezer, I would recommend wrapping the bearing in aluminum foil, then wrapping the wrapped bearing in a wet wash cloth folded in a way that you can get right down by the bore, open the frozen cloth, open the foil, then stick the bearing in immediately. Don't waste a second - have it all lined up and ready to go and you will be in great shape.

Markp · #25 06-05-2012, 07:05 PM

Ok, no harm in trying with out the hone. I don't even have the bearing yet, but I thought it was off by like 30 thou which seemed a lot. All the better if it smacked in there with out hours of honing. I already picked out the poor socket to smack on, he's been through similar abuses in the past so i had to clean up the end.

junqueyardjim · #26 06-05-2012, 07:24 PM

Good, but do keep that bearing cold. Another thing I did when I froze it was to put a regular MB wheel stud with a big washer against the head to help get the bearing started into the hole with out touching it with your hand. Your hand, (fingers) will quickly raise the temp of that little bearing, so don't touch it.

Markp · #27 06-06-2012, 04:44 PM

So for DS length, seems all I need to do is measure the difference in transmission lengths. I keep reading approx 4", but my transmissions differ by about 6-7"?

The auto is just under 24" from front of Bell housing to R of output flange

The alum 4spd manual is approx 17" L? This is not consistent with what I am reading, what am i doing wrong here?

I plan on lengthening the TD front shaft. Probably best to have the whole asm balanced (requiring trip to Mass).

Courier service supposed to pick up my FW today, going to get nuetral balanced at the same shop that matched it. I am nervous about the vibration risk, but nothing i can do about it, sure as heck do not want to pull the crank!

If I went through the trouble of starting it on a cart, do you think I would notice excessive vibration this way? I was simply going to lay it on some 4x4's and tie it down to the aluminum cart it is on now. It would be a lot of extra work to run it on the stand, but maybe worth it?
Thanks

junqueyardjim · #28 06-06-2012, 07:25 PM

I think if you set them side by side, the transmissions will be the same length, (with the same pieces attached, of course) So what you are shortening the front shaft for is not for the difference in length of transmission, but 4" exactly in the length of the engine. The 240D had 5" approximately between the firewall and back of engine. The 300D will leave you only 1" approximately between the engine and firewall. So the engine is backed up four inches, backing the transmission up four inches, so you need four inches out of the front shaft. You will also have to take four inches out of each of the shift rods. I did mine by cutting the four inches anywhere where I had four inches pretty straight. Cut them and mark them so you get them back together correctly - do not mix up the parts. The thread on the ends is a factory rolled thread and it is nicer then a hand cut thread in my opinion.

junqueyardjim · #29 06-06-2012, 07:39 PM

Quoted from MarkP
"If I went through the trouble of starting it on a cart, do you think I would notice excessive vibration this way? I was simply going to lay it on some 4x4's and tie it down to the aluminum cart it is on now. It would be a lot of extra work to run it on the stand, but maybe worth it?"

I don't think so Mark. I don't think you can tell a thing with the engine unmounted. Put it in. With the light flywheel you will love it even though it will buzz a little. Before you install the engine you might was to remove the water outlet on the back of the 240D head. This fed hot water to the heater and it is going to be right against the firewall, so it has to be moved. I removed mine and the plug (and sender maybe) between the first and second glo plug and just changed them around. Much easier to do before the engine is installed I think. Then I ordered a molded heater hose from a URO built 300D and it looks neat and is just the way it should be.

Markp · #30 06-06-2012, 08:01 PM

Thanks, but this is a 4spd swap into an 82TD, with 617T being replaced with a "new" 617T.

The trans lengths are different about 6 1/4", I will confirm exact measurement and add this to TD front shaft.

Yea, I guess it would be difficult to determine vibration with it out. OK, will install and hope for the best.

I am bringing DS to shop tomorrow. i am afraid i will have to wait for this place, but plenty to do in the mean time.

Thanks for your help