603 Motor - Switch to Synthetic from Dino Steps - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

DeliveryValve · #16 06-11-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

...
change the filter/oil every 10K and don't look back.

^x2

^^x3

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pmckechnie · #17 06-11-2012, 04:51 PM

Every one has their opinion on oil change intervals so I am going to give mine. First, I have NEVER let one of my cars go 10K on the same oil. I will go 5K if it is all or most road miles. For instance, if we go on 1 or 2 long trips and travel 4K within 2 months than time for a change at 5 K. Many times, we won't go on any trips for say 6 months and only do short trips with a total of 500 to 1000 miles, It is oil change time. That's correct, it may get changed at 500 miles. Road tractors many times go 25K but the engine may not be shut off more than a few times in that 25K.
All I am saying is time is as important as miles. Cold start-up is the hardest thing you can do to an engine. If your car gets a lot of short trips with very few miles, get that oil out of there.
By the way, my 500SEL will use a quart in 1500 miles of 75+mph driving but will not use any at slow speed. I don't know why but suspect the valve guides. I can live with that.

By the way, I only use Royal Purple Syn 20W-50 in both of my cars.

Paul

shertex · #18 06-11-2012, 05:15 PM

603 recommended interval is 5000. See top of page 2 here: http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Maintenance/sheets86_97.pdf

DeliveryValve · #19 06-12-2012, 02:51 PM

There are reasons why you would do an extended drain interval especially on synthetic oils. First off Americans are brainwashed into thinking that 3,000 mile oil changes is the best thing for your motor. This is basically a marketing campaign generated from the service oil industry which includes oil changes places, car dealerships, and filter companies to convince folks to pad their wallets.

Today's oils, especially synthetics, are resistant to oxidation, thermal breakdown and oil sludging. They have superior protection against ash and other deposit caused by hot spots in the engine. With the introduction of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, acid byproducts have been greatly reduce, which allows for the engine oil to be in service longer - mileagewise and timewise. So even if you drive the car less than a 1,000 miles in a year, synthetic oil will still be serviceable and maybe even serviceable up to two years. If you look at an Oil Analysis report, you'll find the TBN (Total Base Number - a figure that measures the acidity of the oil) in a well acceptable range. You also want to look the insoluble number for soot.

Another reason to keep synthetic oil in there longer is to continually keep the additives bonded to the moving engine parts. The additives of the oil get bonded by high pressure to the moving components. This is basically where your best engine protection lies. These additives account for like 3% of the volume of engine oil, but produce 90% of the engines oil protection. With that low volume number, these additives only start bonding to the engine while being continuously circulated.
Here is an article on bob's the oil guys website about how one additive works, which is similar to the other types.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/

When you change oil often, you introduce an initial cleansing detergent. This detergent attacks and cleans out all contaminants. Though it does a great job of cleaning, the drawback is it also cleans off the existing additive bond and prevents the new additives from forming their bond to the moving parts until the detergent cycle is used up during the first 1000 or 2000 miles. The proof is in doing an oil analysis, several that have been posted in various forums show the engine oil's wear rate is actually higher at 3,000 miles, then it is at 7,500 mile and at 10,000 miles. By keeping the engine in there longer, the detergent cycle is reduce which leads to less wear on the engine.

Here are some SAE white papers that explains the benefits of extended drain intervals.

The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear

Characterization of Anti-Wear Films Formed from Fresh and Aged Engine Oils

So in the long term you are saving money, saving resources, driving more and worry less.

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Jeremy5848 · #20 06-12-2012, 04:05 PM

My '96 E300D (W210, OM606NA) was on dino oil/filter changes at 7500 mile intervals for the first 248,000 miles and 3 owners. The first 200,000 miles was all dealer service (1st owner) and indy/DIY service after that (owners 2 and 3). At the first service post-my-purchase (4th owner) I changed to Mobil-1 5W-40 and have an additional 36,000 miles on the car at this point (284,000 total). No oil leaks before or after changing.

Because the car is driven only about 8,000 miles a year, I made a command decision to change oil and filter once a year. Oil tests over the miles/years have consistently improved (show less wear) and the following picture shows the insides at 277,000 (~4000 miles on the oil) -- clean and with no observable wear. Original timing chain, too, it will probably outlive me.

I plan to switch the new-to-me 1995 E300D (W124, OM606NA) to Mobil-1 at the next oil change, due in another few thousand miles. It also has (at 191,000 miles) no oil leaks and I trust it will stay that way. If the engine had some leaks I would be more cautious about making the switch to synthetic.

The concern about existing leaks getting worse with synthetic oil appears to be valid. My indy says that the synthetic oil molecules are smaller (fewer carbon chains per molecule) and thus can get through gaps that will stop a dino oil molecule. Be that as it may be, I switched the transmission fluid in the '96 to Mobil-1 and the existing front pump seal leak worsened to the point where I finally bit the bullet and had the transmission overhauled.

The rebuilder said that all of the hard parts were good and the wear parts would have been good for another 50,000 miles (total transmission life would have been ~300,000 miles). Oh well.

Jeremy

engatwork · #21 06-12-2012, 05:01 PM

This is what you don't want it to look like. Note the broken chain guide laying in the timing chain case area. This is a 1999 BMW 740i that was brought in on a roll back a couple days ago.

pmckechnie · #22 06-12-2012, 06:10 PM

DeliveryValve,

This is some very informative information. It goes against everything I have ever been taught. I have been changing my oil at 3000 or less for 50 years and have never had an internal engine problem. The author does mention in the last sentence that there are other factors involved. So, do I continue with my every six months max but go to 6K changes other wise? Now, I just don't know what to do.

Paul

jonbobshinigin · #23 06-12-2012, 07:45 PM

Let us know your results once you change. I bet your engine, particularly the lifters, will quiet down a noticeable amount.

At 3k oil changes, a friends Toyota Tacoma has 300k on it and runs great still. I doubt it hurts anything! Its just better economically to change the old less often, especially on synthetic.

DeliveryValve · #24 06-12-2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmckechnie

DeliveryValve,

This is some very informative information. It goes against everything I have ever been taught. I have been changing my oil at 3000 or less for 50 years and have never had an internal engine problem. The author does mention in the last sentence that there are other factors involved. So, do I continue with my every six months max but go to 6K changes other wise? Now, I just don't know what to do.

Paul

If it was up to me, I would do at least a year and 8-10K changes.

But changing old habits can be hard and you probably would feel better if you had proof. So I suggest sending a sample of your oil to a lab like Blackstone and their report would tell you when your change interval should be so in the long run you'll be saving money, resources and reducing wear on your engine.

.

DeliveryValve · #25 06-12-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbobshinigin

Let us know your results once you change. I bet your engine, particularly the lifters, will quiet down a noticeable amount.

At 3k oil changes, a friends Toyota Tacoma has 300k on it and runs great still. I doubt it hurts anything! Its just better economically to change the old less often, especially on synthetic.

300K is very doable on a Tacoma. Toyota motors are balanced well and are pretty durable.

Just to throw some numbers, 3K oil changes in 300,000 miles results in 100 oil changes. I assume this is an older Tacoma, so factory recommended interval is 5,000 mile changes. So at 300,000 miles that would be 60 oil changes. Your friend did an additional 40 needless oil changes.

If it was a newer Tacoma, the factory interval is 10K. Which at 300K miles that would be 30 changes and your friend then did an additional 70 needless oil changes.

.

Bio300TDTdriver · #26 06-12-2012, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmckechnie

DeliveryValve,

This is some very informative information. It goes against everything I have ever been taught. I have been changing my oil at 3000 or less for 50 years and have never had an internal engine problem. The author does mention in the last sentence that there are other factors involved. So, do I continue with my every six months max but go to 6K changes other wise? Now, I just don't know what to do.

Paul

Why don't you get yourself a topsider and send off a sample for an oil analysis at 6K instead of changing it. Then you can make an informed decision on how to procede.