300 D 5 speed info - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

llensart · #1 10-08-2012, 07:04 PM

I was looking on E bay at a 300D non Turbo 5 Speed manual , can anyone give an opinion on how much more power ( quickness ) and top end between this vehicle and what i have 240 D 4 speed manual ?

Mercedes-Benz : 300-Series 300-D in Mercedes-Benz | eBay Motors

Item # 110961012092

gsxr · #2 10-08-2012, 08:16 PM

Well, a 240D (regardless of transmission) can be outrun by senior citizens in wheelchairs, so you're setting the bar pretty low. That pretty red 300D non-turbo will be quicker but not by a huge amount. You could swap in a turbo motor and THAT would be a big improvement.

Given that pricetag though, you'd be crazy to buy it, or any W123 for >$5k. Spend $5k on a pristine late model W124 (i.e., 1995 E300 or E420) and you'll have 10x the car for the same money. Trust me. I've owned several W123's and I hope to never own another. The fact that your original question inquired about "quickness" and "power" automatically makes you a prime candidate for W124 ownership.

barry12345 · #3 10-08-2012, 08:32 PM

At least a little faster with the one additional cylinder. The cruise rpms would be lower. All the gear ratios in the transmission are exactly the same as your 240d manual except it has a fifth gear overdrive.

The rear end may be a little taller as well. If you are interested in this car have it checked out well before commiting to it. I do not like no pictures of the drivers seat other than a description it is torn up. At the claimed milage I would expect better. Tjhe n/a five cylinder engine does not do as well fuel consumption wise as the turbo five cylinder engine usually. Their claim of a mid thirties milage potential is a bit of a stretch to me. You might see thirty is a more likely senario if not pushing the car on the highway.

Also the thread poster quoting the newer models in the same price range may have a point as well. You can get thirty five mpg out of some of them and comfort is better. I suspect inexperienced 123 owners are going to bid this car up further than it may be worth.

Air&Road · #4 10-12-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Well, a 240D (regardless of transmission) can be outrun by senior citizens in wheelchairs, so you're setting the bar pretty low. That pretty red 300D non-turbo will be quicker but not by a huge amount. You could swap in a turbo motor and THAT would be a big improvement.

Given that pricetag though, you'd be crazy to buy it, or any W123 for >$5k. Spend $5k on a pristine late model W124 (i.e., 1995 E300 or E420) and you'll have 10x the car for the same money. Trust me. I've owned several W123's and I hope to never own another. The fact that your original question inquired about "quickness" and "power" automatically makes you a prime candidate for W124 ownership.

Yeah and it can be a Senior Citizen that hasn't even had breakfast yet.

For me, a 124 car with ANY engine and a manual transmission is a treasure.

bradford · #5 10-12-2012, 05:07 PM

I think we can all see that 123 and 124 people are in two separate camps,but either one with a 5 spd is a very special mercedes.
bradford

PackerEdgerton · #6 10-08-2012, 08:47 PM

In general, I agree with the sentiments here, although I admit to being surprised by gsxr's dislike of W123s. I like my 240D quite a lot.

The 240D, with 4-speed manual, (assuming the gear ratios are identical in the 4 gears) is not fast, but it is very solid, and keeps up with modern traffic without incident. I would even say that at lower speeds it is reasonably nimble! Mine certainly is.

Given that my 240D can do 0-60 in around 16-18 seconds, I would wager that a 300D with a little more curb weight but 90HP would probably be a couple of seconds faster, I would guess 13-14 seconds. That would be very nice!

Of course, if you added a turbo, and this got it up to say 124HP, then you'd be in the 10-11 seconds 0-60. Still not fast, but I would say that is pretty nimble!

Still, if you are concerned about quickness and top-end, I agree that you're probably not looking in the right place!

Now, ruggedness and reliability? YEP. No electronics controlling the engine or any vital functions? Yep. Easy upkeep (even compared to W124). Yep. Easy to get parts? Yep. Cheap to keep running (assuming you do most of the work yourself). Yep.

Sincerely,

Packman

gsxr · #7 10-08-2012, 11:10 PM

You have to keep in mind the W123 was designed in the 1960's and went into production in the 1970's. At the time, it was a fantastic car, despite being underpowered. And when the W124's cost significantly more, the W123 still made some sense. But it's 2012 now. W124's are available for under $2k as fixxer-uppers and $5-$7k will get you a pristine one. With ABS, dual airbags, tons of power (compared to the W123), enormously more competent chassis, and overall refinement. Not to mention optional traction control, heated/orthopedic seats, better fuel economy, etc, etc. And, they are not that much more complicated, despite what some people may think. It used to be that 124 parts were hard to come by via salvage yards, but not any more... and new parts are no more costly than they are for the 123.

I owned a 240D four-speed manual, and two W123 300D Turbos. They were decent cars but they're quicky becoming dinosaurs. The red one in the eBay listing is beautiful, but more of a collector's item, IMO. For a daily driver, the W124 makes far more sense. Almost all of the 123's flaws were corrected in the 124, and few new flaws appeared. It was a win-win. I now own a half-dozen or so 124's. All I can figure is that most 123 owners have never driven a good 124, and/or they don't want to admit the 124 is as good as it is.

For the record, I think a W123 is an ideal car for a new teenage driver. Safe, cheap, and slow enough to help keep a newbie driver out of trouble. But when they grow up, they'll want to upgrade to a W124 (or probably any other MB from the 1990's).

If you've never driven a W124, try to find a clean 1994-95 model and take it for a long test drive. Preferably a really clean example, not a beater. Just watch out of the 500E's, they're highly addictive!

JustPassinThru · #8 10-11-2012, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

...W124's are available for under $2k as fixxer-uppers and $5-$7k will get you a pristine one. With ABS, dual airbags, tons of power (compared to the W123), enormously more competent chassis, and overall refinement. Not to mention...All I can figure is that most 123 owners have never driven a good 124, and/or they don't want to admit the 124 is as good as it is...

Hi gsxr,

Seeing as how I now have $2600 kicking around in my pocket from my insurance company, after totalling my 1985 300D...what would you recommend I shop for, in a diesel station wagon? The W124 wagons don't seem like they would have a decent amount of hp compared to the 300D's 120 or so.

vstech · #9 10-11-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustPassinThru

Hi gsxr,

Seeing as how I now have $2600 kicking around in my pocket from my insurance company, after totalling my 1985 300D...what would you recommend I shop for, in a diesel station wagon? The W124 wagons don't seem like they would have a decent amount of hp compared to the 300D's 120 or so.

as an aficionado of the 124 wagons I have to say they certainly do have plenty of get up and go. I believe they come stock with 145hp. they have a taller rear diff, at 2.65:1 but still have stout acceleration. and it's SMOOOOTH! and quiet. if you MUST have the noisy clatta at idle, you may want to skip the 124...

techno · #10 10-11-2012, 08:05 AM

I am currently overseas but had a friend with EXTENSIVE knowledge of these cars check it out for me. He used to import Mercedes to the US and is very familiar with the W123 and grey market procedures, and therefore the Euro versions.

Here are his notes from his inspection:

My opinion: Interesting W123 because of the general condition and 5 spd Euro version,

But, the negatives:

1. Repaint, well done but poorly masked off and detailed, overspray, etc. Correct color code I believe-
2. Trunk does not line up with rear taillight area, been pushed in at some point
3. Rear bumper is from a Kombi, station wagen, not the sedan
4. Under the dash-the kick panel not secured ad hangs down while trying to push in the clutch
5. Rear. passenger's carpet with pad is missing, probably at the paint shop
6. Undercoating sprayed to make the car look "fresh"
7. After market radio, probably a plus but I'd like to have the original radio in it

8. Front Grille replaced, poor job on the rubber seal
9. Areas with overspray

10. Cracks in the MB Tex
11. Taillight assemblies used with a crack in one and the other not secured
12. Removed gas cap, rusted on, look at what I saw!
13. Poor body work down the driver's side passenger's rear door, waves in the body-

14. Heavy paint with overspray, paint

15. Scratches and dents on paint, dr's. side, r. passenger

16. Slight soft dent in the hood.

So I would have a hard time paying anything over $6,000 for this one. A 5 cylinder N/A and 5 speed sounds nice but not at the price and condition this one is in.

Email me if you would like to see the pictures that were taken.

t walgamuth · #11 10-11-2012, 08:09 AM

The burgandy car would have come with the 346 diff from the factory. With that diff you should be able to get around 30 hiway. In mine we swapped in the 307 diff and get 35 with regularity hiway. driving on secondary roads at 55 to 60 my daughter had a couple of tanks where she got 40 mpg.

That looks like a nice clean car. It will probalby sell at the price imho.

t walgamuth · #12 10-11-2012, 08:11 AM

Oh, and the eruo na has plenty of power. Startlingly more than a 240d.

Not much different than the turbo model and a lot simpler.

Mine will run 100 mph even with the 307 diff.

gsxr · #13 10-11-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustPassinThru

Hi gsxr,

Seeing as how I now have $2600 kicking around in my pocket from my insurance company, after totalling my 1985 300D...what would you recommend I shop for, in a diesel station wagon? The W124 wagons don't seem like they would have a decent amount of hp compared to the 300D's 120 or so.

If you must have a DIESEL station wagon... you only have one option, the 1987 300TD. It has 148hp in stock form after the trap is removed (free dealer recall if the car still has it) and they can be turned up to 160-170hp with a little tweaking. Much faster (and quieter) than the 123 sedans. Only about 1500 were imported to the USA and many of those are gone, so the main problem will be locating one in decent condition, at an affordable price. Nice ones tend to command a premium, I've seen really nice ones in the $5k-$10k range. One just popped up for sale locally (click here) but from the few fuzzy photos, it looks to me like the price is about $2k high (asking $6k).

On the flip side... 124 wagons with gas engines are plentiful and relatively cheap. I'd look for a 94/95 E320 wagon, even better if it has ASR and heated seats (especially if you live in a cold climate). But for $2600 you'll probably be looking at 1990-ish wagons, which are ok, but nothing special... I'm personally not that fond of the M103 engine, but some people prefer the relative simplicity of the mechanical injection over the more refined & powerful M104 with electronic injection, distributorless ignition, etc. 1993-95 wagons have the M104 motor, 1988-1992 have the M103.

Edit: Are you in the Seattle area? Here's a few - the one 87 diesel is a fixxer-upper though:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/3307034814.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/3322627851.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/3322621202.html
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/3322729672.html
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/cto/3321636045.html
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/3327253699.html

JustPassinThru · #14 10-11-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

...the 1987 300TD...

In your (and others') opinion(s), is it a viable plan to purchase a newer W124 gasser wagon, and eventually transplant a good OM603 from a sedan into it? --or are there issues with transmission, ASR, exhaust routing, or some other gotcha?

gsxr · #15 10-11-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustPassinThru

In your (and others') opinion(s), is it a viable plan to purchase a newer W124 gasser wagon, and eventually transplant a good OM603 from a sedan into it? --or are there issues with transmission, ASR, or some other gotcha?

You'd have to be a pretty serious die-hard dieseler to go through with that swap. You'd need the diesel engine+transmission, and there may be minor driveshaft flange issues, plus swapping the vacuum "ignition" switch, etc. If the car had ASR that would be disabled (best to convert a non-ASR car, IMO). And, there would be major problems with emissions testing, if you live in a state that has smog requirements. On the bright side, you'd be starting with a late 124 chassis with all the facelift stuff.

IMO... I'd either keep & drive the E320 as-is (what's the problem with the gasser, btw?), or look for a super clean well-maintained 1987 300TD, even if you have to pay a premium for it. It's FAR easier to resurrect an existing diesel car (assuming it's not rusted out or wrecked), than to convert powerplants.

FWIW: The diesel wagon will only get about 20-30% better fuel economy. And with diesel prices hanging around 10-15% above gas prices, there is not much cost savings based on fuel alone, unless you drive a HUGE number of miles per year, and/or get lots of free biodiesel.