approved transmission fluid - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Silber Adler · #31 12-19-2012, 09:41 AM

When you say flush the fluid .... is that different than draining the pan changing the filter and draining the TC?
Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

....

Personally, I am happy to use Mercon/Dexron III, flush it every 80-100k, and replace the clutch disc's, gaskets, and seals every 350-400,000 miles.

I can assure you, when the transmission reaches 350-400k miles, the seals need to be replaced, consider each "seal" an arterial aneurysm prepared to burst, and leave you walking.

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whunter · #32 12-19-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silber Adler

When you say flush the fluid .... is that different than draining the pan changing the filter and draining the TC?
Thanks.

Drain the torque converter and oil pan, and change the filter.
FYI: The filter KIT is cheap, but a single MBZ filter (no gasket) is Roughly $45 USD.
My logic says buy the best possible kit all the time.

If that is difficult, take it to a transmission shop, and request a machine flush with Mercon/Dexron III.

In Detroit metro area a machine flush with Mercon/Dexron III ranges $60 - $125 USD at after-market shops, depending on where you go.

The MB dealer is roughly $237.00 USD.

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Doktor Bert · #33 12-19-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silber Adler

I remember seeing someone (maybe burt) who used ford AT fluid. Stating that it was more aggressive to clutches and was good. I hope he or who ever said that posts.

I put in standard dextron fluid in my transmission before I read that. Am thinking that the faster the shifting occurs, the less wear.

Will be following this thread.

Ok,

Keep in mind that some newer transmissions require special fluids. This psot will confine itself to older, non-overdrive MBZ transmissions.

I use only Type 'F' in the non-overdrive MBZ transmissions and have for many years. The frictional coefficient of the fluid is more aggressive and improves shift quality and extends band life. Rapid engagement reduces slippage and heat.

Dexron and the Mercon derivatives contain a 'slip agent' to promote smooth torque converter clutch engagement at the expense of clutch and band life, at least to some degree.

All your racing transmission fluids are 'F' type in their chemical composition for this reason.

The older MBZ transmissions will happily digest just about anything.

On my personal car, I never change the filter, since it is just a wire screen. However, I drain the converter and the pan and replace the fluid every 25,000 miles...FWIW

Doktor Bert · #34 12-19-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCyborg

I have been using Mobil1 in both my cars for 8 years.

ATF | Mobil 1™ Synthetic ATF

Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF meets or exceeds the requirements of:

JASO 1-A
Ford MERCON® V

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is of the following quality level:

Allison C4
GM DEXRON® IIIH
GM DEXRON® IIIG
GM DEXRON® IIE
GM DEXRON® IID
GM DEXRON® II
GM DEXRON®
Ford MERCON®
Voith H55.6335.3X
MAN 339 V1
Volvo 97340
Volvo 97341

I never, ever use synthetics in an automatic UNLESS it is factory fill. ALL fluids designed for lock-up converters emply a friction modifier (slip-agent) to induce slippage and allow smooth engagement of the converter clutch.

The BEST Dexron III fluid available is Febi/Bilstein #22806 (MBZ # 001 998 21 03 10) and it has a very different color and smell than any other ATF.

Many customers have remarked that they feel a difference in the shift quality when we use this fluid.

It is the only Dexron III/III-H that we stock and sell....FWIW

sgnimj96 · #35 12-19-2012, 05:13 PM

I change my filter and used Valvoline MaxLife from AAP. Its a dex/merc synthetic.

SpecialDelivery · #36 12-29-2012, 02:27 PM

Not meant to be combative. Its been my understanding that you should change conv trans fluid at least every 2 years or 24k The MB FSM calls for the filter and fluid change at 30k. The trans fluid the grade they refer to "Oil Grade ATF Refer to MBNA Factory Approved Service Products List" Same stuff that goes in the power steering pump "ATF".

What is this mythical fluid?

Thats all in the FSM, over on startek... all i can find is this... http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/9511/?requestedDocId=9511 which does not go back far enough. Did / does MB have a similar list back in 1982? Probally...magnuson moss was passed in 1975

It's easier if I reply my responses and questions below in blue. NOT TRYING TO BE A DOUBTING THOMAS!! and at the end of the day, when I get a couple of engine dynos and a limitless supply of fuel, I can set up two engines and trans's one with Coke and the other w Pepsi and see whats what. In the meantime....I dont have to decide right now, and I still dont have the info I seek. And Oh yes I will find it. If I have to write Stuttgart I will find it

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

RE: AMSOIL, call me if you want to discuss that topic.
**************************************

To answer your question:
YES the fluid can be "too slippery", the science is stupid difficult to dig through.

I like science. Spent almost a whole day reading on this. Throw it at me, I'm not scared!

I dislike explaining it this way, but can not release confidential OE material.

What confidential OE material? What I think needs to be found is the specs on the fluid that was in use by the mfgr when they made the transmission. Then compare that against the specs on whatever other fluids we've got. It was my understanding that Are you saying that MB had it's own brews in the car from the factory and we cant see the specs on it?

I have witnessed perfect functioning 722.4xx and older transmissions fail immediately or shortly after switching to synthetic fluid.

Is there a possibility they were ready to fail anyway? Does this give creedence to the "dont flush it if you haven't been flushing it all it's life" ideaolgy? That the dirt is the only thing holding it together?

I have witnessed multiple freshly rebuilt 722.3xx transmissions fail immediately, removed, taken back to the (various) re-builder, total tear-down, thorough flushing with Mercon/Dexron III, replaced the clutches again, filled with Mercon/Dexron III, re-installed, and it worked flawlessly until the owner DIY changed to synthetic fluid voiding the transmission warranty.

What warranty? The rebuilders warranty? Does the Magnuson Moss act not apply to Cottman/Aamco and all indie trans shops? As long as the fluid meets or exceeds the spec it should work right, right? Was / were they not using fluid that met spec?

I have witnessed several freshly rebuilt 722.3xx transmissions fail immediately, removed, taken back to the re-builder, total tear-down.
We found the new clutch disc's where ruined, (by what I suspect was chemical reaction with the synthetic fluid).

How the heck does that happen? What are these clutch disks made of? I dont get how something in a bottle called transmission fluid would have nasty chemical reactions with the internals of a transmission. Maybe I am a fool, maybe I'm a genius.

Having said that; There are many people that have switched with seemingly no issue.

Right...like people who smoke for their entire lives and never get cancer? But these arent carbon based biological lifeforms....they're machines.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHH!!

As I always have said, and will continue to say to all owners:
* The vehicle is yours.
* The FINAL decision is yours.

Personally, I am happy to use Mercon/Dexron III, flush it every 80-100k, and replace the clutch disc's, gaskets, and seals every 350-400,000 miles.

This sounds good!

But the FSM says 30k, but again that was for the fluid they had 30 years ago.....

I can assure you, when the transmission reaches 350-400k miles, the seals need to be replaced, consider each "seal" an arterial aneurysm prepared to burst, and leave you walking.

Yes...but I have seen motor oil leaky front seals pretty much stop leaking....like a quart a month down to half a quart over the course of three months, when we put AMSOIL in it. Someone told me something about Seal Conditioners....again maybe I'm a fool...maybe not. I dont know.

I LOVE CAFE BUSTELO, I love Zanio Polish....I love Vidalia onions...all the Malbecs from Argentina, um.... Johnny Walker.... Brother and Espon printers.... um...Mercedes Benz's ... sushi, I'm big on sushi... oh and the beach...I LOVE THE BEACH!

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bolzano · #37 12-29-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillGrissom

I recently looked at options online and at Autozone. I ended up getting the Autozone Dexron VI. Says it replaces Dexron III and is superior. However, forgot I bought AFT+4 at the same time for my Mopars, forgot and put 2 qts of the later in my 300D (85 CA, has your 86+ tranny). Doesn't matter. Most tranny fluid uses the same base oil and they just put in additives.

Similar questions for my 60's Mopars. Original isn't available, and Chrysler said "use Dexron III instead", back in the 80's. My 96 Voyager should use ATF+4 (today) and it has the exact same Torqueflite internals as my 60's 904 & 727 trannys, so I use ATF+4 in my old Mopars. Before that I used Type F (as many do), since I read it had more friction modifiers for firmer shifts. I since read that ATF+4 has the most friction (good), plus the Autozone brand used to say "fully synthetic". Many Chrysler V-6 (4 spd) minivan trannys were ruined because they said one could use Dexron III if the then-new ATF was not available. The slippier fluid caused the lockup converter to get confused and jump back and forth, wearing out the plates. GM wanted slippier fluid to give slower, smoother shifts since the un-schooled public thinks that is a sign of a good tranny. Actually, you want quick, firm shifts, which is what "shift kits" do.

In sum, I will strive to use Dexron VI in my old 300D's, but ATF+4 should be fine too. Mixing fluids does nothing bizarre. Then again, I am someone who uses silicone brake fluid and doesn't believe the bunk about bad things happening if a little left-over glycol fluid mixes in. I also know that Valvoline's DOT 4.1 "synthetic" brake fluid is marketing bunk (all brake fluids are synthetic).

Hope Dexron VI works out. However,
note that viscosity of Dex VI is lower than Dex III. Possibly for fuel economy. It is possible that Dex III shears down to lower viscosity as it gets used while Dex VI is supposed to be more stable in viscosity with use.
A 96 Voyager should have a lock up torque converter unlike '60's Torqueflites. Lock up TC shudder tends to occur when friction modifiers degrade with use.
Type F has no friction modifiers. Atf 4+ has friction modifiers as does Dexron III, Dexron VI, Mercon, Mercon V. Friction modifiers can be designed to reduce friction under different conditions. ATF 4+ ihas more friction modifier than Dexron III.

Friction modifiers as currently used in ATF tend to reduce friction especially when clutches are almost engaged to avoid shudder of clutches, especially lock up torque converters. Old Type F tends to have friction increase as clutches are almost engaged. Type F when used where the lock up torque converter is supposed to use FM fluid causes grab-slip-grab-slip which feels like shudder.

All "approved by Chrysler" ATF4+ is supposed to be synthetic.
Ultradrive 4 spd transmissions did break down in 1989 and 1990's before ATF 4+, ATF 3+, ATF 7176 were available. These newer ATF's made to Chrysler specs have more friction modifier than Dexron III.

Friction modifier properties have little to do with whether an oil is synthetic, or has a certain viscosity.

Personally, I use generic Dexron III in my 1985 Mercedes. Recently, Dexron may be labeled "DM" for Dexron Mercon or "for older domestic cars" because transmisison fluids are seldom approved by GM as meeting Dexron III these days.

Brief History of ATFs - Bob Is The Oil Guy
Valvoline.com > FAQs > System Fluids Car FAQs > Automatic Transmission Fluid

qwerty · #38 12-29-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolzano

Recently, Dexron may be labeled "DM" for Dexron Mercon or "for older domestic cars" because transmisison fluids are seldom approved by GM as meeting Dexron III these days.

Seldom? Actually, it's never. All Dexron III licenses have expired; Dexron III is no more.

JHZR2 · #39 12-29-2012, 07:27 PM

Dexron II or III is the correct spec for most older MB diesels.

Both are obsolete, and so there is no such thing as a Dexron II or III fluid anymore. Just some ATFs that are blended to have an add pack and characteristics like Dex III did.

Im not yet convinced that Dex VI is suitable for older MB ATs.

Id run a name brand Dex/Merc type fluid, and use a bottle of Lubeguard Red.

Alternately, perhaps preferably, Id rather run Valvoline Maxlife ATF, which apparently at one point actually helf an MB approval, and also meets what was Dex III.

Silber Adler · #40 12-29-2012, 08:31 PM

I have six quarts of type F. Have read of what the pro mechanics have mentioned and think that dropping in a pan full of type F non synthetic is the way to go.

My transmission shifts so you can feel it when cool but once warm they are decidedly smooth. I have 200k miles on the transmission and have no desire to rebuild it just yet. My fords a 99 and 05 both shift faster and with more force.

When I changed the fluid and filter (with valvoline mineral based dextron5) 2000 miles ago there was no particles or discoloration in the fluid. I can't there was any noticeable change in shifting then. I am going to add the 4 or 5 quarts into the transmission at the next change.

JHZR2 · #41 12-29-2012, 09:14 PM

Ive never seen any MB literature recommend Type F. Is it listed on the MB Bevo site for one of the older grades of MB ATF?

If not, or really practically speaking from the MB literature that Ive seen, including FSMs, OMs, etc., have all stated Dex II.

TheDon · #42 12-29-2012, 09:35 PM

Autozone's house brand for Domestic vehicles is Dex/Merc III compatible.

whunter · #43 12-30-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpecialDelivery

Not meant to be combative. Its been my understanding that you should change conv trans fluid at least every 2 years or 24k The MB FSM calls for the filter and fluid change at 30k. The trans fluid the grade they refer to "Oil Grade ATF Refer to MBNA Factory Approved Service Products List" Same stuff that goes in the power steering pump "ATF".

What is this mythical fluid?

Thats all in the FSM, over on startek... all i can find is this... http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/9511/?requestedDocId=9511 which does not go back far enough. Did / does MB have a similar list back in 1982? Probally...magnuson moss was passed in 1975

It's easier if I reply my responses and questions below in blue. NOT TRYING TO BE A DOUBTING THOMAS!! and at the end of the day, when I get a couple of engine dynos and a limitless supply of fuel, I can set up two engines and trans's one with Coke and the other w Pepsi and see whats what. In the meantime....I dont have to decide right now, and I still dont have the info I seek. And Oh yes I will find it. If I have to write Stuttgart I will find it

I have answered your question.

You are rejecting - ignoring my answer.

You seem to desire a protracted discussion or argument, the answer is NO.
Stuttgart will not use R&D time answering your question.

.

SpecialDelivery · #44 12-30-2012, 02:45 PM

Roy,

It's not that I dont think you would know. I do not expect or seek for you to change your position or add to it, you're not one for leaving things out.

Ok..so I'm not rejecting or ignoring what you said. I DO BELIEVE YOU, you have no reason to lie. From what you have seen and touched you run Dexron 3. and YES I want to discuss....this is a discussion forum

You know I love discussing...it's one of my favorite things...right there with coffee, pecan pie and peaches.

This here is like town square to me...where we go to chat with the townfolk...see how their crops are doing, what they're feeding their dogs... when the next Schnapps run is happening etc...but we talk Benz's

NOW if I'm being a scootch...well I dont mean to and no I dont intend to continue this debate for ever and ever and ever, however I do feel compelled to respond to your statement as I am not rejecting your answer. I take everything to mind and whiteboard when investigating something.

You have the highest level of experience so when you say something....it's pretty much gospel to me as I imagine to many others who read and participate here.

I dont know if I would LIKE the idea of leaving a non synthetic fluid in service for so many miles...conventional wisdom says cleaner is better but I agree that from a cost/peace of mind perspective it may be better to run the Dex3 cheap and it works right, and change it whenever you feel you have to.

In my mind, regular oil is a 3000 mile fluid, everything else in the car is 2/24k

I do not for example, agree with everything a mfgr says...like Ford on the Ford Explorer calls for oil change at 7500 miles. I would NEVER consider running a non synthetic motor oil more than 3000. Thats just me. Synthetic, maybe...but I would want to be sure that at 7000 it's protecting as well as it was at 3000. If I really cared and wanted to know the tests are reasonable cost considering the data you get and not having to guess or assume.

Im trying to work around the part where you said " confidential OE info" I'm not accustomed to NOT being able to obtain information.

I have to be able to find something and so far from perusing MB's site...nada.

At the root of this issue is that the type of fluid ORIGINALLY used in the trans is no longer made. To state that the closest thing to original spec is such and such means one either must have read the specs (like the links I posted to the dex3 and merc5 info) on the original OR be taking that info as gospel from someone else...who hopefully has compared it, or horses mouth from MB.

I imagine that somewhere there is something from MB stating to use xyz ( or a fluid that meets or exceeds yada) in the 722.blah blah, so far I cant find it. Available so far is only this http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/9511/?requestedDocId=9511 which references 2005 and newer...on the 722.5 and 722.51 only. Nada so far on the older ones.

I have a friend or two at the dealers... I will see what they can provide me.

Until I know what spec/grade they say...again the latter trans's I could find info on said Dex3 but not a 722.303....cant find it. Sucks.....what is MB no longer supporting the car? the FSM is off their site now...

So if I cannot find the specs on the original or what "sheet" number they're refer to for suitable replacement, I can NOT compare the specs (kinematic viscosity, viscosity index, flash/freeze...all the normal indicators) of Autozoo's Dex3 vs Merc five or whatever I could buy at the dealer.

I'm probably just too whatever about it...but I've always been a "a guy who just wants to see it" ....

if the 240d has the same requirements, I'd love to get two of them, rebuild the trans's fresh, and put em into taxi cab service for a couple of years....do one one way and the other another and see what breaks first...

I do thank you as always for your irreplaceable counsel and contribution.

One last thing..had you been the guy who re sprung the valve body in my trans, we would not be having this conversation right now and there would be Dex3 in the tranny probally for life. mm'kay my friend

Salute!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

I have answered your question.

You are rejecting - ignoring my answer.

You seem to desire a protracted discussion or argument, the answer is NO. << No you would not run synthetic, gotcha.
Stuttgart will not use R&D time answering your question. << (right you are H&R had no answer why I cant use the 420SEL springs in the sixty pound heavier or vs versa I forget 300SD)

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SpecialDelivery · #45 12-30-2012, 03:02 PM

I just sent a nice email to the classic center about this question. I'll post the response when I get it.