Starting problem Help, engine runaway
 

I was driving around all day yesterday. The motor was performing well.

Got in to start it this morning glowed it then when it fired up it immediately revved real high and started to climb. I shut it off immediately and now it will no longer start. The starter will turn it over but it will not fire.

Last night I re-attached the oil pressure sender wire and put a new gasket on the side cover of the injection pump. But that was all I did.

I noticed that the glow plug light (since I put in this "new to me engine" stays on a lot longer than the old engine.

What would cause it to rev like that? and then not start back up?

Mark

I'd start by taking a close look at the area you worked in around the injection pump. I would suspect a loose line, wire or hose.

Did you remove the vacuum shut off pod?
If so it was not put back correctly.
Check your work, you will be the best person to determine what you did.

Nope. All I did was remove the side cover to install a new gasket. Did not mess with the vacuum.
I am guessing the glow plugs are OK as it fired right up first thing.
Is there perhaps a blown relay or fuse from the over-revving that would cause this no start?

RedTop Battery is now getting weak from trying to start it.

M

Answer
 

Recharge the battery.
Do NOT try to start the car again until you Call me.


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On the phone
 

multiple calls (hours) walking through diagnosis.

Please note this is a conversion 1987 300DT OM603 installed in a 1991 300GD SWB.

***************************************

Turbo breather intake hose removed, lightest possible (normal) oil trace found.

Turbo charged air (cross over) pipe removed (left off for diagnosis), lightest possible (normal) oil trace found.

Attempted to start, no joy.

Loosened injector line #1 and #2, cranked the engine, no fuel flow.

Removed the vacuum shutoff hose.

Attempted to start, no joy.

Removed ALDA, left off for further diagnosis.

Attempted to start, no joy.

Removed fuel return hose to test fuel flow (not pressure).
Looking for 150 CC in 30 seconds of cranking = 5 oz.

Output = 4 oz.
I suspect this is acceptable, the fuel tank is lower than the engine on the 300GD body making it work harder.
We discussed replacing the mechanical lift pump with an electric unit at a later date.

Random thought:
The oil pressure sender wire was removed.

Attempted to start, no joy.

The shutoff valve was removed.

Attempted to start, no joy.

The injection pump side cover was removed

Everything is visually functional.
Everything that was removed previously was reassembled/installed.

***************************************

OK, we have a tentative diagnosis of internal governor damage.

The old ALDA was tested before reinstalling and found to be broken = not holding pressure.
No start.

He installed a spare good ALDA, and the engine started instantly, revving hard to 4000 RPM before he could shutdown..

After shutdown the electric governor was unplugged.
No start.

Reconnected the electric governor.
Again, No start.

Removed the spare good ALDA, and it is now wrecked.
STOP, at this point since he has a complete spare injection pump available.

I will post links to the required procedures, shortly (quick parts run to MB).


.

can't wait for pics of the pump.

Update
 

Check your e-mail. :D

You will want to look at these pictures.
1992 300D Injection Pump Timing Photos by whunter | Photobucket

Here are the special tools:

Injection Pump Timing/Locking tool, it goes into the 17 MM port on the side of the Fuel Injection Pump Governor housing.
Mercedes Part# 601589052100

Special Sleeve to assemble Diesel pump
MB# 601 589 05 14 00

AB Light (RIV Method) does.
Diesel Timing Static Position Indicator, for injection pump static start of delivery measurement.
MB# 617 589 08 21 00
Application:
OM601, 602.91, .93x, .94x, .96x
OM603.91, .93x .96x, .97x
OM605, 606
OM617.93x .95x


Don't hesitate to call with further questions. :)

When the damaged injection pump has been removed, (at your leisure) I can walk you through opening the rear cover (internal damage) for pictures.

http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.merc/Dieseltiming%20MB.pdf

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/attachments/diesel-discussion/109276d1360517934-ip-injection-pump-timing-300d-2-5-603-603-0761.pdf

http://www.mbmaster.ru/SsangYongRexton/files/1f3_2.pdf

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I am at the dealership (used to work here) they will swap the pumps for $500. It kills me not to do it myself but it is worth it for me to do it and have the timing done right.
I will update you on the progress. Said it will take 4 hours. They still have some old school techs working here.

Mark

Cool
 

I was concerned that time was a serious factor for you.


.

Nowhere else could you get tech help like this with followup included.
Hats off to whunter ;)

Amen to that. He was so helpful. Via phone we went through so many diagnostic scenarios. I really appreciate the time he took.

Mark

Update: the dealership installed the new pump and has everything back together but it turns out the fuel restrictor valve (A 6010700146) on the block side of the pump appears to be bad (fuel is going back to the tank and not to the injectors). New valve to come in Monday so hopefully I will be back on the road after it is installed.

M

Yes Roy is one of our MercedesShop treasures!

Now that these cars are becoming aged, modified and ultra high mileage, we are beginning to see things happen that don't fit into previous syndromes.

Congrats to you and Roy for grabbing the Tiger by the tail and hanging on!

Strange they just did not use the relief valve from your other pump. I could see them maybe taking the approach they are if the replacement pump was brand new. The old one was in the workable range I wouild expect. Although they probably do not check the fuel pressure. So a new one may be better than a used one if so. Or it may be no better than the used one either.

I don't believe the new pump had the valve in place. I believe it had a plastic plug.

Photo new pump installed. Hopefully Monday I will be on the road again.

Mark

OK new development: the restricter valve was not the issue. They got the motor running but it had no power. The timing was way off. After much discussion with the tech and the shop forman we determined that the problem stems from when I had the motor out and was replacing various components. One component in particular was the front crankshaft seal. When I removed and reinstalled the front vibration absorber timing wheel I evidently reinstalled it way off the timing mark. So when the techs installed the new FI pump aligning it with the timing marks they were inadvertently setting it up wrong.
So now they will first set the engine timing by the camshaft marks. Then they will remove the timing wheel and place it back in its proper position then they will once again remove and reinstall the injection pump.
All because of one stupid mistake on my part.

Hopefully tomorrow.
Mark

Ouch
 

Mistakes happen.
At least it will be fixed quickly now. :D


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pump
 

Thanks Hunter.
What can I say "First mistake this year." ;)
Mark

Well that puts you in a better position than most of the rest of us--or "me". anyway.

Update:
Got the timing wheel back in its proper place and timed properly now however at load there is a nailing noise at #5 cylinder (did not do this prior to the engine swap). Did a compression test all cylinders are good. Swapped one of the other injectors with the #5 and there was no change. So it turns out that the new pump that I have had for years has had an internal issue all along. So next step will be to remove it, for a 3rd time and send it to the local Bosch certified shop for analysis/repairs.

I will update you when I know more.
M

If the injection shop is going to charge you substantial coin. You may be able to mark the number five pump element adjustment and try manipulating it instead.. The knock should go away.If not just place the adjustment back on the original mark and take the pump in.

Later when more time is available you can use the milli volt method to make sure the cylinder is running at the same temperatue as the others. This is not a perfect solution but no harm should be done. You do not have the time to do a proper set up for the milli volt method right now prior to the adjustment.

The number five element sounds advanced to me. There is also a chance the number five elements delivery valve seal has deteriorated with the pump sitting around for years. I cannot visulaise the calibration adjustment going off what it was set at really with the pump not in service. My suspicion is they might have calibrated the injection pump while accidently using a bad injector the last time.

I was kind of suprised the older mechanics did not quickly check with an injector substitution and attempted the manual correction themselves. Marking the adjustment well means that if it later proved to be a delivery seal issue you could also put the pumps element back to the same position. I do not know where the element adjustment is for the 603 type injection pumps. At some point they went internal but are still managable.

I'm curious to see how this swap turns out and how much differently your truck drives! (I drove a LWB 300GD a few years back and it remains by far the slowest things i've ever driven)

pump
 

Barry
With the first install of the pump after trying repeatedly to start it they noticed that the rack did not slide all the way over like the old rack did. They removed the side cover and saw that (I don't know the name of the part) the #5 element that rides along the rack and rises up at a certain point was completely out of its slot, off to one side and restricting the racks movement. They reached in with a small screw driver and put it back in place but I guess that the damage was already done. I have not pulled a pump apart before so I do not know its internal workings. (Attached is a photo of the old pump for reference. The area I circled was the part that was off)

They are sending the pump to the shop for a repair of that element not a total rebuild, so hopefully a second mortgage will not be necessary.

Mark

Wow
 

That is amazing..
Thanks for the picture..


.

It is reasonably certain the number five element seized up in storage. The rack could not advance it so the racks motion initially was limited. The weakest component in the chain let go and full rack movement was then established.

Or in hindsight I think that may have been the chain of events. Some of us like myself that do not know learn something from issues posted. In my case if I come across a rack that will not advance easily in the future I will investigate the situation carefully.

A rack that will not advance with a pump that has been in dry storage should get special consideration. Perhaps this should be a preliminary check before installation. I always thought the hangup of an elements piston was about the only potential dry storage issue. .

I could never earlier really figure just how an unused pumps element could go out of calibration. It was just a wild assed guess earlier that it may have been calibrated with a bad injector or it's equivelant on the service bench. That was just a reach at best.

Wow. Wow is an understatement.
 

So, the bill is now over $2,500.00 and the techs will have something else to charge for after the pump is rebuilt (wink, wink, rebuilt)? If this wasn't so serious in terms of the money gashing on this adventure to the OP by MB, it would be funny.

BenzDiesel

FYI
 

This thread is now linked in post #1 of the engine runaway thread.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/101404-run-away-diesel-why-does-happen.html


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pump
 

I WISH it was only $2500. :(

Yes unexpected expenses are painful. I usually try to farm out as little of our needs as possible because of the unpredictable nature of their costs when doing so.

In addition you almost have to keep a critical eye on things then as well. I do not feel there is a paranoia factor involved because I still seem to get caught up occassionally in what is today.

So my approach always leaves somewhat of a constant backlog of things to get caught up with. That is a real understatement at times. Also for too many reasons to list the approach I use is certainly not for everyone.

Update and Suggestions
 

The re-calibrated new pump is back in and the it idles fine. When its warm at speed it acts like it is running on 5 cylinders. When checked by cracking each line there is no change in the idle at the #5 cylinder. The Compression test was excellent but this was done when the engine was cold. I requested that they keep the car one more day, get it up to operating temperature and then do a compression test on cylinder #5.

At this point I don't know what else to do apart from start preparing the #17 head that I have in the event that the #5 has a crack in the head there.

There is no oil in the radiator and no coolant in the oil.

Ideas??

Is it safe to drive it like this till I prepare the new head? Or could there be further damage if I do drive it?

Thanks
Mark

The engine was running fine until the runaway with the old pump? Installation of the new pump indicated the number five element had definate issues. Perhaps from long term storage. It was sent out for repair.

Now you have a problem of some sort on the number five cylinder after the repair. It seems to me you should have a talk to those that repaired the pump.

There is of course coincidence but there is also a chance the repair of the number five element was not totally successful. As the fuel gets hotter in the injection pump perhaps it is going or passing by in the element bore a little too much.

One test would be to run an injector on the end of the hard line with it not mounted in the head. Is there any output from that injector with the car warmed up?

You could run the engine up to temperature. Then install an injector on the hard line and start yout test. Since there is no differance when you loosen off the number five injetor feed nut after the engine is hot there may be no output from that injector.

For example if the bore of the number five injection pump element had some corrosion it might just seize up high in the bore once the elements piston heated up. There is a chance that after getting warmed up the delivery valve is staying open I guess as another even more unlikely possibility.

If so there would be no usable fuel out of the injector I would suspect. I just think it would be too coincidental if the engine had not exhibited this behaviour before your semi runaway you experienced.

I could see this pump testing well on a test stand in a service facility as it is obviously working well before your car gets warmed up. The internals of the pump heat up as well remember with running. I personally would not suspect a problem in that number five cylinder at this time that is not injection pump involved. Your hot compression check tomorrrow will be fine on that number five cylinder tomorrow I suspect.

I assume that the valve clearances have been checked in the last fifteen thousand miles. Or you are pretty certain that the number five cylinders valve clearance is there to some extent. In my books this is a long shot even as my common sense says it should not have a rapid onset as you have experienced.

Barry
Thanks for the input. This shop that did the recalibration is a Bosch certified that the dealership has used since the 70's so I would hope what they did was correct.

I had the same thought as you that the pump element element when hot was not performing but: When they cracked the #5 cylinder line the fuel came out of the line as it should.

The injectors have been swapped around to see if there is a bad one in the mix but the issue stays with #5

Do you think that just driving it may loosen this up?

Any possibility that the #5 prechamber is clogged?

Mark

The #5 cylinder hot compression test tomorrow is more for my piece of mind and fact gathering.

Mark

Peace of mind does help any of us. It concievably might loosen up by use if it were a sticking element piston when hot. Depends what is exactly wrong in there.

Open hard line test is not that conclusive.

Only if the injector is not producing a spray when the engine and injection pump is hot. I could see any injection pump shop missing something like this. In many ways it is better than facing a head job at least.

If the cost is gettting out of control. You could get a pump lock and pull the pump and take it back to the shop if you prove this is still an injection pump issue first.

All the injectors were bench tested as well and the spray was as it should be.

I do have a pump lock but I think I may just run it for awhile and see what happens.

For a motor that was running well before it just seems odd that it now exhibits this issue after the pump install.

Well it should not hurt anything. Make sure to notify the shop that fixed the pump. Just so they cannot later claim it is a new fault or whatever.

I was just sittting here thinking that if the problem does not go away. Try the engine on vegatable oil. If the engine remains firing on the number five when hot. The element bore is bad.

If not probably the element piston is sticking. I was also thinking about some aditive that might help the piston and bore if it is sticking but cannot think of anything.

Using the engine and pump may yet kind of lap it free with some time if it is a little rusty.

Thanks I will pick it up later today.

Mark

Picking the vehicle up tomorrow (Monday). They said that the #5 cylinder hot compression test showed insignificant change in the compression. For me that indicates that the head is OK.

So i am just going to drive it and see what happens.

Thanks for all the responses.
Mark

Sorry this has turned out to be so painful. It will be interesting to see what if anything occurs with you trying it for awhile.

Thanks Barry
We will see what happens.

OMG!!!!! Update
 

I went to pick up my G today. Drove it up the street and it ran horrible!

So I turned around and went back to the dealership. On the way back I began running all the test scenarios that I did when Hunter was helping me troubleshoot over the phone.

One scenario that kept coming to mind was when I had the crossover pipe removed and the turbo covered with a rag. The engine fired up but once again began to race. So I shut it off immediately. I expressed what happened to Hunter and said that I could not find the T-shirt rag that I was using to cover the turbo. I did find a similar rag on the floor on the other side of the garage so I just thought that it was the one.

Well after todays miserable maiden voyage I went over that again with the techs and said what say we pull the intake manifold and see if by some chance I have a t-shirt in there.

Low and Behold the T-shirt was in the manifold draped over #5 and #6 intakes. :eek: How bizarre is that!!

I will once again be going to pick it up tomorrow. You just have to laugh at such a bizarre series of events.

1. Injection pump goes bad.
2. While trouble shooting lets let the engine ingest a t-shirt to further complicate things.

Hopefully all will be good tomorrow.

Mark

Photo of the pipe.
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http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pscf6bfa72.jpg
*
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Thanks to everyone for the advise and well wishes.

Mark
Thanks Hunter

Chuckle
 

Thank goodness it was simple. :D
The picture is impressive. :eek:

.

No wonder #5 was running rough. I am just glad that the T-rag was made of cotton not polyester. Otherwise it would have melted and man that would have been a real mess!

Mark

Well you may not have intentially thrown in the towel on this job. But throwing the towel in you did.:D

It was a good thing that you remembered that towel . Some things are just painful.

Is your occupation by any chance a surgeon? If so we are more likely to understand this.:D

Nice story. Laughter is the best medicine when working on a Mercedes diesel, if you can last long enough with cash to see a successful outcome. At least you got the pain over quickly by letting the MB place do it, fix your car. I try to spread the pain out over time and try to prevent getting gashed, all at once in one lump sum like when going to the dealer. Also, I wonder if MB is going to release your car in good shape, even now? It wouldn't surprise me if something else is wrong with your car to your dissatisfaction, since the MB place passed the car off to you as fixed after thousands of dollars of MB shop time and the rag was still in the intake. Did the techs tell you that was the way diesels are supposed to run, before you suggested they check for the rag in the intake? I know the MB place told us that using a quart of oil every 500 miles was normal in the 90's edition of w140 diesel engines. Some MB places will tell you anything, other than that they don't know how to solve a problem. Hope your car is fixed, now.

BenzDiesel

All's well that ends well – glad you’re back on the road. And don’t feel bad; sometimes, there is just nothing you can do about these unforeseen expenses. Trust me; I’ve saved a few thousand wrenching on cars at home, only to spend upwads of $20k in unplanned medical expenses for something absolutely unexpected.

Hats off to Roy, along with all the other knowledgeable folks for chiming in! This has been a very interesting/educational thread.

The dealership was great. They had me go down to the shop floor and discuss/troubleshoot with the shop forman and the tech doing the work. I have known these guys for awhile as I used to work there so they were all to familiar with my expertise.

Having them install the new pump was well worth the money to me.

Not to mention having the free 2013 GLK loaner car for 2 weeks. Really a fun car to drive. It had this ECO option where when you come to a complete stop (with the brake on) the engine shuts off and as soon as you lift off the brake it starts again. I was thinking that that must be one powerful starter to respond to so many stops and starts.

Anyway My G is up and running and I will continue tweaking it till its just right.

Mark