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1987 300TD confusing running hot problem
1987 300TD running hot
Iposted this under general but I hope this forum will give a better response than the 0 i got in tech tips. I have a 1987 300TD with 200K miles. About 15K miles ago the car over heated, into the red, because of low fluid level in the radiator that was leaking. Replaced the radiator, thermostat, hoses, and serpentine belt. Car contiued to run hot, at about 100deg C. with the temp fluctuating with load. This all began to happen after it over heated the first time.. Car gradually got worse and began to make lifter noise. Decided to remove head and do a vlave job and replace all the lifters. Also replaced water pump and visco fan clucth. Car ran much better but still runs hot with fluctuating temp. Oil cooler was swapped with another car. No change. Finalyl decided to change oil thermostat this weakend as a last ditch effort to solve problem. No change. Where is the next place to look? Also I changed the temp sending unit early on. It almost seems that the termostat opening point is off,but I have changed it twice. I have gotten so fed up that I feel like selling the car, but it runs well outside of this temp problem. Also ambiant temp has minimal effect on engine temp. It was 42deg F this moring and car still ran hot.
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63 190d (sold) 69 220D (sold) 69 280SL (sold) 76 BMW 2002 (sold) 86 190E-16v (Demised at Laguna Seca Turn 9) 87 300SDL (sold) 87 300SDL 135k 87 300TD 280k (sold) 95 E320W 211k 95 E320w 111k 05 C320 4matic 06 E320 CDI 90k (Totaled by a texting 19 year old girl in a nissan) 2013 GLK 250 Bluetek 4MATIC |
#2
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603 Temp issues?
Man I have the same engine in my SDL and I've been recently experiencing wacky engine temp syndrome. I've been searching and following a couple of threads here and they all seem to relate to cracked cylinder heads! Now of course I don't know but you situation seems like it fits. You said you had your head off to do a valve job, was you head checked at that time thoroughly for straightness and cracks? If the head wasn't right the new head gasket could fail and it seems like that situation is a precursor to eventual head failure from thermal stress. I hope not but its something to consider. I'm waiting for a tool to pull my head bolts and then the head for a look at the gasket and the head area between the valves. You can do a search for this 603 motor and cylinder heads to find an ongoing head failure/replacement discussion, Good Luck!
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#3
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300sdl advice
Had the head off and pressure tested and checked for warpage. It was trua and flat and passed the pressure test. Did a careful visual inspection and the head looked great. I have no water loss or coolant loss that I would expect from a cracked head. The engine could run better when cold but I suspect it needs a can of diesel purge. THe engines runs well. I was thinkng it could be related to turbo functions or back pressure issues. I will most likely take it to the dealer and get charged to much for them to tell me they can't find anything.
Some advice on removing the head fromyour 300. I had a heck of a time taking the chain guide pins out. Be careful and do not strip them. Get all new plastic and rubber retainers for the injection fuel lines, they will break as you take the off. Have your exhaust manifold checked for warpage, my was realy warped from a leaky gasket on the no. 6 sylinder. Follow the directions carefully when taking the cam shaft off. Change your lifters if you hear any lifter noise, it made a big difference on mine.
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63 190d (sold) 69 220D (sold) 69 280SL (sold) 76 BMW 2002 (sold) 86 190E-16v (Demised at Laguna Seca Turn 9) 87 300SDL (sold) 87 300SDL 135k 87 300TD 280k (sold) 95 E320W 211k 95 E320w 111k 05 C320 4matic 06 E320 CDI 90k (Totaled by a texting 19 year old girl in a nissan) 2013 GLK 250 Bluetek 4MATIC |
#4
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Check the temperature of different sections of hose/radiator, etc.. and you should be able to at least tell if you are circulating hot water (thermostat is opening) through the radiator. If one hose is hot and the other hose it not then you have an issues in the circulation system. On my 240D I had to get the thermostat from a local parts house because the MB thermostat would not open.
I will say that the warmer/hotter weather we have been having has done wonders for both the 240 and the 300D.
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Jim |
#5
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1987 300TD confusing running hot problem.
May I assume that you had the Trap removed by MB under the recall program?
Camshaft timing is correct? Injection timing is correct? You are using 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze? Cooling system is properly bleed of all air....ran heater full on? 20-50 synthetic oil used? Just a few suggestions..... ebiker 1963 190Dc, rusted away. 1974 240D, rusted away. 1977 240D, the "money pit." 1981 240D, accident victim. 1985 300D, traded away, sob. 1987 300D, son of "money pit." 1991 Audi 100...good in snow. 1993 Audi 100S..grandson of "money pit." 1977 BMW R75/7, 'ol reliable. 1987 BMW K-100RS, fast 'n reliable. |
#6
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Check the thermostat out of the car heat up some water to check at what tempture the stat. opens. Had to check several be for i found on that was right.
Bill
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94 dodge cummings,86 ford 6.9,75 mbz 240d[ sold], 82 mbz 300sd,83 mbz 300sd |
#7
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I had already done most of them, except the 20/50 synthetic oil. I have run Rotella T 20/50 for most of the life of this car. Seems to have worked, but I have considered running synthetic if I can't fix this running hot problem. It seems that changing the oil cooler and replacing the oil thermostat did have a minor positive impact. Still runs hot on load. What turbo component would make an engine run hot? I almost feel that the original thermostat had a different flow capacity than the current ones (I have put three new ones in ). THe car began running hot after I replace the original thermostat and over heated the car on the first run. Did not bleed the the air out of the cooling system correctly and it overheated less than two blocks from the house. Any advice before I take it in to the dealer?
Henry
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63 190d (sold) 69 220D (sold) 69 280SL (sold) 76 BMW 2002 (sold) 86 190E-16v (Demised at Laguna Seca Turn 9) 87 300SDL (sold) 87 300SDL 135k 87 300TD 280k (sold) 95 E320W 211k 95 E320w 111k 05 C320 4matic 06 E320 CDI 90k (Totaled by a texting 19 year old girl in a nissan) 2013 GLK 250 Bluetek 4MATIC |
#8
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If this were a Jaguar, I would say the head gasket was still leaking somehow...
That is still what it sounds like. Have you had the coolant checked for exhaust gases? |
#9
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I am on thermostat #3 and this one makes my temp guage read 90C. It is a dealer thermostat. As a pessimist, I may conclude that this one opens early and is hiding a problem Previous two Wahler t-stats read 98C on the freeway. Has you car ever had dexcool? Do you have brown sewage like material lining your connection from the upper radiator hose to the block?
Brian |
#10
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How do I get the coolant tested for exhaust gas?
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63 190d (sold) 69 220D (sold) 69 280SL (sold) 76 BMW 2002 (sold) 86 190E-16v (Demised at Laguna Seca Turn 9) 87 300SDL (sold) 87 300SDL 135k 87 300TD 280k (sold) 95 E320W 211k 95 E320w 111k 05 C320 4matic 06 E320 CDI 90k (Totaled by a texting 19 year old girl in a nissan) 2013 GLK 250 Bluetek 4MATIC |
#11
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1987 300TD confusing running hot problem
Let's see, you replaced the thermostat? Only goes in one way...spring faces in, right? There might be a small "Bleed Hole"-faces up, I believe. Upon filling the cooling system with a 50/50 mix of MB antifreeze 'n water, did you jack up the front of the car to help bleed air, in addition to heater being on? Has the trap oxidizer been removed by Mercedes Benz warranty and replaced with the NEW exhaust system? Have you tried a bottle of Red-line water wetter? MB radiator cap is the correct one--important--use a Benz cap! Synthetic oil will drop the oil temperature a bit. I used Valvoline 20-50. BTW, if you had a cracked head into the combustion chamber, you would know!!
Good luck....please let us know the outcome!! Ed. (Ride a Motorcycle.....view bad driving first hand) |
#12
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According to my Haynes manual. The thermostat starts to open between 175f to 193f(80 to 90c). The stat. is fully open between 193f to 200f(90 to 94c). My experience with overheating in other cars was the thermostat. Just try removing it completely and see what happens. If you have a jelly thermometer or frying thermometer, you can test it in a pan of water on your stove and see what temp. it opens and closes. Also sometimes hoses colapse if they are old, not allowing the water to circulate properly.
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Gary 85 300D Ivory, 202,000 Beatus exsisto Jesu, verus et Deus verus Vir |
#13
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I had the opposite problem -- no heat. Fixed it with a new MB thermostat.
I'd never use anything buy an OEM thermostat -- all the aftermarkets I've seen don't work properly. Normal temp is about a needle width above the 80C mark -- shouldn't go above that this time of year. Replace the coolant tank cap with an MB 20 psi one. Some aftermarkets are OK, most are not (I had a coolant loss/high running temp problem with the 300TE due to a bad cap). Otherwise, check for high coolant pressure cold -- if there is significant pressure in the coolant tank on a cold engine, the head gasket has blown or the head cracked . Usually there will be oil in the coolant, too if this is the case. The only other causes I can think of are very fast IP timing (hard to set on these cars), a collapsed hose, restricted circulation of coolant (is it possible to get the head gasket on upsidedown?) or, the cheap fix A BAD SENDING UNIT!!! I've seen more than one go bad when the engine overheated, reading high all the time. The one on my sister's Volvo pegged out after she blew the head gasket and toasted the head. I'm sure yours wasn't that hot (I had to replace the head), but they do go bad. Cheap to replace, too. Loose wire will do the same thing.
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1972 220D ?? miles 1988 300E 200,012 1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles 1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000 1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs! |
#14
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The Jaguar mechanic I use has a kit that checks the coolant, if there are exhaust gases present it turns yellow. I presume a MB mechanic would have a similar test kit.
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#15
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Thanks for all the advice. Unfortunantly there is no smoking gun on this topic. Sending unit has been replace. Radiator is working well and there is no cold spots on radiator. No indication of exhaust gas in the coolant. Radiator cap has been raplace and changed with a 300sdl cap. No collapsed hoses. Water pump, fan clutch, oil thermostat and oil cooler changed. Good power. Is it possible that for what ever reason, I keep getting the wrong or a bad thrmostat? Every indication would point to the thermostat but I have changed it three times, all with Behr thrmostats with a green dot on it witch signifies turbo diesel. Maybe there is a conspiracy to trash a buntch of 603 engines. I plan on drilling a hole in the thermostat to increase flow prior to removing the thermostat all together. Any last minute suggestion? How many holes and how big? I figure to increase the CV of the thermostat by 30 to 50% if possible. A mechanic told me he did it once on a 450 to take care of a nagging overheating problem on that car. Maybe it has something to do with turbo operation or some seemingly dissassociated system. Maybe the car has an attitude problem or suffering from PMS, (Pre mortem syndrom)
Henry
__________________
63 190d (sold) 69 220D (sold) 69 280SL (sold) 76 BMW 2002 (sold) 86 190E-16v (Demised at Laguna Seca Turn 9) 87 300SDL (sold) 87 300SDL 135k 87 300TD 280k (sold) 95 E320W 211k 95 E320w 111k 05 C320 4matic 06 E320 CDI 90k (Totaled by a texting 19 year old girl in a nissan) 2013 GLK 250 Bluetek 4MATIC |
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