Wvo "gum" in IP

[Knuckleballerr]

1984 300sd with a MW type injection pump.

So I'm trying to solve an issue the previous owner left me.. gum in the injection pump from crap wvo usage. This crud is extremely strong, I first noticed it during a filter change as it covered the top of the filter; I first thought it may have been rust.. but it more behaves like paint and as far as I could tell didn't respond to neodyo magnets (rust is weakly magnetic) and clean metal was below the layer.

I've taken the bolts out near the filter and have been testing various fluids to break it down. MMO (Mineral spirits?) doesn't seem to do much of anything. Vinegar (acetic acid) doesn't seem to break it down. ATF has a slight affect and ethyl acetate seems to be dissolving it slowly; however adding ethyl acetate will surely dissolve any rubber.

My question is; besides the rubber "check valves" in the lift pump and fuel tubes.. is there anything that may be compromised by running ethyl acetate through the injection pump to sit for a length of time just to be emptied into glass jars prior to the injectors?

At this point i'm considering a diesel purge of sorts with some mixture of ethyl acetate and some oil carrier to maintain lubrication for the health of the pump. It would be helpful to have some sort of abrasive materials to help pull the material off (I have on hand copper nano wires and multi-walled carbon nanotubes @ 10-30 nm w/ 5-20 nominal micron length) but I prefer not to damage the pump

Also, if I remove the injection pump; do I need to drain the car oil as well? I could stick a sonicator probe into the fuel routes and take it off that way as well.

[John Galt]

Try acetone/turpentine/methanol mix. It's organic crud, non-petro solvents work better.

[yvairguy]

think what you may need is some heat, a lot of people that run WVO run a heater to keep it from doing what you describe.

[Mxfrank]

WVO polymerizes into a something like epoxy under heat and pressure. I'm not sure you can remove it by anything but mechanical means. What I would do is nothing, expect to switch back to real Diesel.

[charmalu]

I don`t know if this is the same thing. I bought a fuel tank out of a 85 300D to use in the 80 240D to replace the 17 gal tank.

The new tank had some stuff on the insides of the tank up around 8 inches.
Looked like the color of chicken Skin. I dumped in a qt of lacquer Thinner and sloched it around. let it sit, sloched some more and drained it out the filler neck. a whole bunch of crap came out.

Then added another qt of the thinner ( all I had) and did the same thing, and it cut out the rest of the gunk. then flushed it a few times with gas to rinse.

Iam wondering if the stuff in the IP is the same thing. You might try running the lacquer thinner in the pump and let it sit to dissolve the crud. then flush it out with Diesel.

Berry12345 mentions to use the lacquer as I remember. he might jump in here if he is around.


Charlie

[ah-kay]

Do NOT need to do anything. WVO polymerizes when it meets air. There is no air inside the IP or else the car will not run. WVO lubricates IP better than diesel and there is no gunk inside the IP. The gunk you see on top of the filter housing is caused by polymerization of previous leaks. WVO dissolves rubber, albeit very slowly, so the o-ring on the filter housing may be compromised, so check for leak and replace if necessary. In fact, all rubber parts are compromised by the WVO but it will not manifest itself for a long long time. So do not worry.

Run 1 tank of diesel #2 to clean up any residual WVO in the system. Or fix any leaks and keep running WVO.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by ah-kay

Do NOT need to do anything. WVO polymerizes when it meets air. There is no air inside the IP or else the car will not run. WVO lubricates IP better than diesel and there is no gunk inside the IP. The gunk you see on top of the filter housing is caused by polymerization of previous leaks. WVO dissolves rubber, albeit very slowly, so the o-ring on the filter housing may be compromised, so check for leak and replace if necessary. In fact, all rubber parts are compromised by the WVO but it will not manifest itself for a long long time. So do not worry.

Run 1 tank of diesel #2 to clean up any residual WVO in the system. Or fix any leaks and keep running WVO.

Please explain this in detail.
I tough it was reasonably well know that WVO has more Acid, Water and unknown crap in it. How does that be come a better Lubricant.

Then there is the fact the even heated WVO is still thicker than Diesel Fuel. The Elements in the Fuel Injection are lubricated by the Fuel. If the Fuel is not thin enough to get between the Plunger and Barrel of the Element to lubricate it well.

End, then WVO is noted for occasionally killing a Fuel Injection Pump and Diesel Fuel is not noted for that.

[funola]

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Please explain this in detail.
I tough it was reasonably well know that WVO has more Acid, Water and unknown crap in it. How does that be come a better Lubricant.

Then there is the fact the even heated WVO is still thicker than Diesel Fuel. The Elements in the Fuel Injection are lubricated by the Fuel. If the Fuel is not thin enough to get between the Plunger and Barrel of the Element to lubricate it well.

End, then WVO is noted for occasionally killing a Fuel Injection Pump and Diesel Fuel is not noted for that.

Dip your left hand in diesel and your right hand in vegetable oil and try to turn a doorknob. Now tell me which has better lubrication property.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by funola

Dip your left hand in diesel and your right hand in vegetable oil and try to turn a doorknob. Now tell me which has better lubrication property.

That comment lacks Science.

Do the same with Motor Oil and then Grease. You will also find that Grease is more slippery on a Door Know then Motor Oil. Or do the same with Motor Oil and STP.

Do you plan to drain out the Engine Oil and fill your Crankcase with Grease or STP???

If the Lubricant is too thick to reach where it needs to go it is not going to lubricate well.
That is only one of the reason there is different Lubricants for different jobs.

[JB3]

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Please explain this in detail.
I tough it was reasonably well know that WVO has more Acid, Water and unknown crap in it. How does that be come a better Lubricant.

Then there is the fact the even heated WVO is still thicker than Diesel Fuel. The Elements in the Fuel Injection are lubricated by the Fuel. If the Fuel is not thin enough to get between the Plunger and Barrel of the Element to lubricate it well.

End, then WVO is noted for occasionally killing a Fuel Injection Pump and Diesel Fuel is not noted for that.

Fyi, ULSD is notoriously well known for damaging fuel lubricated rotary injection pumps that were designed prior to the intro of the newer fuel. I have replace 5 or 6 early 6.2, 6.5 chevy pums, as well as 6.9 and 7.3 early pumps in fords, that were experiencing wholly fuel related wear problems. You can see the galling when the pump is apart.

VO does not do that, nor is the bogeyman of "acid content" a concern for the most part. What it does do, is build up like plaque if theres an air problem or if people are horribly undisciplined on flushing it out of the fuel system hot.

Personally, i have never seen a picture of or heard from a single person who has done it, a single rubber seal eaten away from vo usage. Gummed up equipment from polymerization? Sure.
Do an experiment, fry some chicken, strain the fyrer oil, and toss a bunch of rubber seals and metal parts in there. Leave it for a month. Apart fro having to chip the parts out of the rubber cement, these parts will be fine

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by JB3

Fyi, ULSD is notoriously well known for damaging fuel lubricated rotary injection pumps that were designed prior to the intro of the newer fuel. I have replace 5 or 6 early 6.2, 6.5 chevy pums, as well as 6.9 and 7.3 early pumps in fords, that were experiencing wholly fuel related wear problems. You can see the galling when the pump is apart.

VO does not do that, nor is the bogeyman of "acid content" a concern for the most part. What it does do, is build up like plaque if theres an air problem or if people are horribly undisciplined on flushing it out of the fuel system hot.

Personally, i have never seen a picture of or heard from a single person who has done it, a single rubber seal eaten away from vo usage. Gummed up equipment from polymerization? Sure.
Do an experiment, fry some chicken, strain the fyrer oil, and toss a bunch of rubber seals and metal parts in there. Leave it for a month. Apart fro having to chip the parts out of the rubber cement, these parts will be fine

Actually I was not thinking beyond Mercedes Fuel Injection Pumps and in particular the MW Fuel Injection Pumps the OP was speaking of.

But, how long would the Rotary type Fuel Injection Pumps last on WVO or VO?
But I have said this in one of the other threads. The areas on the Stanadyne Rotary Pumps that the new Diesel gets to is where Steel Rubs agains Aluminum.
That would be the Cam Ring and the Advance Piston if it still has a Steel one.

However, even before the Diesel Fuel changed, back in the lat1970s the Stanadyne DB2 Fuel Injection Pumps suffered Failures from the Elastic Governor Retainer Ring and the Shutoff Solenoid Failures. And, that was when they were only a few years on the Vehicles.

They tried to fix it by useing a different materials for the Govenor Retainer Ring but the best Fix ended up being a one piece Solid Govern Weight Retainer.
But, that did not fix the Shutoff Solenoid issue.

There was also some issues with the Governor Spring Pack and they went through several variations of Spring Packs trying to cure it.

They also had trouble with the input shaft Seals Leaking when the first came out.

The Seals on the Stanadyne or the Bosch VE Rotary Pumps (My Volvo has the problem right now) could have a problem from the Fuel.


The VE Pump on My Volvo also exibited the wear issue cause by the Steel Ring inside that advances the Fuel Injection rubbing on the Aluminum Housing.

[JB3]

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Actually I was not thinking beyond Mercedes Fuel Injection Pumps and in particular the MW Fuel Injection Pumps the OP was speaking of.

But, how long would the Rotary type Fuel Injection Pumps last on WVO or VO?
But I have said this in one of the other threads. The areas on the Stanadyne Rotary Pumps that the new Diesel gets to is where Steel Rubs agains Aluminum.
That would be the Cam Ring and the Advance Piston if it still has a Steel one.

However, even before the Diesel Fuel changed, back in the lat1970s the Stanadyne DB2 Fuel Injection Pumps suffered Failures from the Elastic Governor Retainer Ring and the Shutoff Solenoid Failures. And, that was when they were only a few years on the Vehicles.

They tried to fix it by useing a different materials for the Govenor Retainer Ring but the best Fix ended up being a one piece Solid Govern Weight Retainer.
But, that did not fix the Shutoff Solenoid issue.

There was also some issues with the Governor Spring Pack and they went through several variations of Spring Packs trying to cure it.

They also had trouble with the input shaft Seals Leaking when the first came out.

The Seals on the Stanadyne or the Bosch VE Rotary Pumps (My Volvo has the problem right now) could have a problem from the Fuel.


The VE Pump on My Volvo also exibited the wear issue cause by the Steel Ring inside that advances the Fuel Injection rubbing on the Aluminum Housing.

From the standpoint of second hand experience (whatever thats worth, not a lot), IE, while I was working in a truck shop my friend who was part time worked in an injection pump shop rebuilding injection pumps and such, the VO doesn't seem to wear interior components like that, at least from what he had to deal with mainly (lots of farmers in the area), which was farmers dumping raw oil of whatever type in their fuel system, and rebuilding the pumps started out with degreasing the damn things with dish soap and picking out stinky hardened oil in the pump from the truck sitting 2 months full of oil and tons of air leaks in the fuel system. (his words)

However, every now and then someone would come in with high oil mileage, a clean truck or car, and injectors or other components that looked fine. I ended up doing it myself after a bit, its certainly fun to set up a system and play.


His complaints seemed to me more about the oil building up on stuff than wearing stuff down. Parts would stick vs wear.

Unfortunately the whole matter is so rife with opinion, information and counter information that its impossible to really have good data on it. It would really be interesting to see a good objective test done, all on the same engine, all the same load uses, and see how things wear. Heated two tank system, single tank atrocity, ULSD, biodiesel.

It all goes back to the users discipline IMO, I worked on this one particular truck, another old ford pre power stroke 7.3, and the guy had such consistently leaking injector return lines that he had never bothered to fix, (I guess he didn't care, fuel was free, the plus side is the polymerized oil sort of sealed up the leaks after a while) For a bit though, VO was running down the motor and back of the engine to the tranny on a regular basis. It was a nightmare. Before I could pull his injection pump off to send off to the pump shop, I had to dig out crap with a spatula and pick to even expose the bolts.
He had if I recall, about an 8th of an inch of polymerized oil collected around the front his transmission pan, couldn't just unbolt it and change the filter, couldn't turn bolts, every single thing had to be picked clean. I was mad that day.

[GregMN]

Originally Posted by ah-kay

Do NOT need to do anything. WVO polymerizes when it meets air. There is no air inside the IP or else the car will not run. WVO lubricates IP better than diesel and there is no gunk inside the IP. The gunk you see on top of the filter housing is caused by polymerization of previous leaks. WVO dissolves rubber, albeit very slowly, so the o-ring on the filter housing may be compromised, so check for leak and replace if necessary. In fact, all rubber parts are compromised by the WVO but it will not manifest itself for a long long time. So do not worry.

Run 1 tank of diesel #2 to clean up any residual WVO in the system. Or fix any leaks and keep running WVO.

X2

I agree with everything in the above post.

VO at 160 degrees F is the same viscosity at diesel.

VO does not kill IP's. Water kills IP's. Water can be found in VO that is not properly prepared as fuel. Properly prepared VO has no more water in it than diesel.

People who do not properly prepare their VO as fuel and/or use it in a poorly designed system, give VO a bad name by ruining their car. Others have run 100's of thousands of miles on VO. The weak link in the system is usually the user.

[Diesel911]

Originally Posted by GregMN

X2

I agree with everything in the above post.

VO at 160 degrees F is the same viscosity at diesel.

VO does not kill IP's. Water kills IP's. Water can be found in VO that is not properly prepared as fuel. Properly prepared VO has no more water in it than diesel.

People who do not properly prepare their VO as fuel and/or use it in a poorly designed system, give VO a bad name by ruining their car. Others have run 100's of thousands of miles on VO. The weak link in the system is usually the user.

VO is not the same as WVO (which can be a mix of a lot of things including Animal Fat).
When the Car is shut down for the Night what keeps the VO heated to 160 degrees so it does not congeal in the Fuel Supply Lines or where ever it happens to be in the system?

Viscosity is not the whole story. Diesel Fuel is purposly made to do a specific Job. VO or WVO was not purosely made to do that job (Fuel to burn in the Engine) so I do not believe it can do it as well.
I can only say that in normal use good clean Diesel Fuel is never going to Kill a MW type Fuel Injection Pump, never.
It won't stop your Fuel Supply Lift Pump from working either.

[JB3]

Originally Posted by Diesel911

VO is not the same as WVO (which can be a mix of a lot of things including Animal Fat).
When the Car is shut down for the Night what keeps the VO heated to 160 degrees so it does not congeal in the Fuel Supply Lines or where ever it happens to be in the system?

Viscosity is not the whole story. Diesel Fuel is purposly made to do a specific Job. VO or WVO was not purosely made to do that job (Fuel to burn in the Engine) so I do not believe it can do it as well.
I can only say that in normal use good clean Diesel Fuel is never going to Kill a MW type Fuel Injection Pump, never.
It won't stop your Fuel Supply Lift Pump from working either.

This is exactly why the idea of a single tank VO system is ill conceived at best. They only work in southern CA and florida, and only for a certain amount of time, because as you point out, the engine gets worn out from trying to pump a thick fuel, cold thick fuel going through injections gums them up, coaks up the rings, ect. The worst thing that ever happened to the VO industry, was how so many reliable diesel models of car and truck will run VO for a while with nearly no mods, despite a crappy single tank arrangement and a line of BS from a company or companies producing single tank kits.

To run it forever, you need a two tank system, start up and shut down on diesel, use the diesel fuel to warm up the VO, switch when things are hot, switch back before shutting off. I don't adhere to the magic temp of 160 degrees. All oils are different, the correct temp is hot enough to flow like diesel, the incorrect temp is cold enough to not flow like diesel. If different for every oil and how every system is designed