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  #16  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:51 AM
toomany MBZ's Avatar
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Go the local hardware store and see if they have the "gasket" pictured.

I can only find plastic ones now, used to be a composite material.

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Trying to diagnose rough running OM616 - 1983 240D-screen-shot-2015-10-30-12.01.18-pm.jpg  
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by funola View Post
Call the dealer, they'll order one for you and give you the part number. If you don't want to wait and have an old correct washer, clean that up and use it instead of the wrong copper washer.
Well... if I can find the old aluminum washer. I was working in the dark last night and wasn't taking any special steps to save/preserve the old one. It may be lost by now. We'll see.

Like I said, I'll keep you all posted. Thanks.
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MagicBus View Post
Well... if I can find the old aluminum washer. I was working in the dark last night and wasn't taking any special steps to save/preserve the old one. It may be lost by now. We'll see.

Like I said, I'll keep you all posted. Thanks.
Do you have a spare filter housing you can steal one from?
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  #19  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MagicBus View Post
Interesting theory... The valves did require adjustment, but I don't recall it being that bad. I'll likely leave the valve cover on for now, but will keep this in mind if the other diagnostics don't pan out. Like I said, as the engine didn't seem to work any harder on that highway run than in the previous week of driving, I'm hesistant to see that as a source of my problem. But, as that 15 minute highway trip MAY have been to blame, I mention it.



I think someone already mentioned that, but it bears repeating.




Yeah, I'm thinking (and hoping) based on what I'm seeing that the engine is just sucking air. Like I said, I drove it 200 miles or so before this happened. I definitely had the ENGINE up to speed before the highway run. The only reason I delayed a highway run until then was that the alignment was way off. I had the car aligned after work on Monday and that's when this (unrelated) problem started.

Past experience tells me not to drive it until I fix it, though, as (knowing my luck) it will quickly get worse and strand me. As I have other cars, there's no reason to take that risk. So, I'm hoping that's all this is. If it's NOT, though, then I want a solid plan for diagnostics.





The question is, what WOULD be the correct part number on that? Peach/Pelican doesn't seem to list it.

Also, it's a sealing washer. My gut tells me that we don't really need the official Mercedes part on this (then again... mine is still leaking).



So, like I said, my plan for tomorrow is to pull and anneal the washer before reinstalling it and take it from there.
No reason yet to go to more sophisticated test lists. Take a magnification glass and examine the filter holder for cracks around the bolt hole though when installing the washer.

I think others have experienced that. Beats frustration of why will the washer not seal if that problem continues. Things like check the valve lash are pretty far down the list yet. You wanted a list though. Watching others add to it is interesting. Plus we all learn something.

For example I never knew there was an air purge bleed valve item on the injection pump. Instead I thought the pumps self purged well. I even wonder why they did this. Unless otherwise there is always a small pocket of air we leave that is trapped in the pump.

To me if this is so it is normally doing no harm. Much like the static bubble in the primary filter.. Actually if that existed I would want to leave it in there anyways. To act as an additional pulse attenuator.

Last edited by barry12345; 10-30-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:58 AM
toomany MBZ's Avatar
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If you can locate an 02 filter head, that does away with the crush washer, as it has two rubber "O" rings on the banjo bolt.
First pic is of an 01 head.
Second of an 02 head.
Third of the two "O" ring banjo bolt.
You may get away with just that new style bolt.
Attached Thumbnails
Trying to diagnose rough running OM616 - 1983 240D-screen-shot-2015-10-30-12.07.17-pm.jpg   Trying to diagnose rough running OM616 - 1983 240D-screen-shot-2015-10-30-12.07.37-pm.jpg   Trying to diagnose rough running OM616 - 1983 240D-screen-shot-2015-10-30-12.07.48-pm.jpg  
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  #21  
Old 10-30-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
If you can locate an 02 filter head, that does away with the crush washer, as it has two rubber "O" rings on the banjo bolt.
First pic is of an 01 head.
Second of an 02 head.
Third of the two "O" ring banjo bolt.
You may get away with just that new style bolt.
The 02 filter housings are less prone to leaks when changing filters. I have two spare ones if anyone needs one.
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  #22  
Old 10-30-2015, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
Do you have a spare filter housing you can steal one from?
...possibly... I have a spare engine out of a '79, but I've managed to avoid pulling any parts off it. Personal OCD quirk. I'd consider that if I can't come up with anything else.


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Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
No reason yet to go to more sophisticated test lists.
I wouldn't think so either. But, sometimes my tendency to fear the worst overrides my need to take a logical Occam's razor approach to a problem. It's just a little maddening to spend 3.5 years working on a project, get a VERY NICE week of driving out of it, and to have this happen with no notice.

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Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
Take a magnification glass and examine the filter holder for cracks around the bolt hole though when installing the washer.
Note to self - buy a magnifying glass. It'll also help for me to look at this in daylight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
I think others have experienced that. Beats frustration of why will the washer not seal if that problem continues. Things like check the valve lash are pretty far down the list yet. You wanted a list though. Watching others add to it is interesting. Plus we all learn something.

For example I never knew there was an air purge bleed valve item on the injection pump. Instead I thought the pumps self purged well. I even wonder why they did this. Unless otherwise there is always a small pocket of air we leave that is trapped in the pump.

To me if this is so it is normally doing no harm. Much like the static bubble in the primary filter.. Actually if that existed I would want to leave it in there anyways. To act as an additional pulse attenuator.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very appreciative of all the diagnostic suggestions. I just want to get my ducks in a row so I can fix this. With any luck, some combination of playing around with that filter washer is all I need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
If you can locate an 02 filter head, that does away with the crush washer, as it has two rubber "O" rings on the banjo bolt.
First pic is of an 01 head.
Second of an 02 head.
Third of the two "O" ring banjo bolt.
You may get away with just that new style bolt.
Good to know. I'm hoping it's not the housing as I'd like to fix this ASAP.
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  #23  
Old 10-30-2015, 01:39 PM
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Actually the physics of the secondary fuel filter leak have always interested me. Unless it where a very heavy leak it should not have much effect. Other than it reducing fuel pressure but that would take quite an obvious heavy leak.

This with the filters contents under constant pressure when running as it is after the lift pump. Now when the engine is off air may enter there and enable back flow of the fuel if the lift pump valves are not essentially perfect. If air gets into the system while running it almost has to be before the lift pump.

After sitting there may be air to purge out in the fuel system ahead of the lift pump with a secondary filter leak.

I never commented on this before because the majority seemed to think leakage there was a running factor. . It just never added up to me. I would welcome any other opinions or observations.

Where I have been going is any leak after the lift pump may allow some drainback. Many of the complaints of hard starting in cold weather I always wondered might be low initial fuel supply quantity initially.. Ideally when you shut the engine down residual fuel under pressure should remain present if the lift pumps two check valves are good.

I was wondering and may have expressed that adding one more check valve to the system overall might not be a bad ideal. Volkswagon does it around the rear axle area on their 1.6 diesel cars. I have run one of their cars without it myself after driving on a gravel road smashed it.

I just borrowed a small piece of hose from the engine compartment. Removed the smashed check valve and substituted the hose and was on my way. So I suspect they have a check valve up ahead and this is just a secondary one at the back of the fuel line. Perhaps a back up if the front one is expected to deteriorate. Running without it made no difference in that car and it remained in service for a long time.

What I feel is repairing that leak might solve his problem as it seems to have done for others. At the same time unless I have missed something I do not understand the physics of it. I am just missing something I guess.

Not stealing your thread either. Just a filler until you get the leak repaired and that may be all that is required hopefully.

Last edited by barry12345; 10-30-2015 at 02:23 PM.
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  #24  
Old 10-30-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by funola View Post
The best diagnostic aid for air in fuel in any diesel engine is a clear return to tank line. In your Mercedes, it is at the filter tee on top of the filter housing (where the cigar hose connects to). You should see solid fuel there without bubbles at any time, engine running or off, otherwise, air is getting into the system.
Hmmm... That doesn't sound 100% correct to me. I may be misundstanding. thought the cigar hose was the return-to-tank line. Let me see if I understand this correctly.

At the top of the filter housing:
  • the small braided line is the return-from-injectors line
  • the cigar hose is the return-to-tank line
  • the clear plastic hose is ALSO a fuel tank return line? (if so, what route does it take?)
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  #25  
Old 10-30-2015, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry12345 View Post
Actually the physics of the secondary fuel filter leak have always interested me. Unless it where a very heavy leak it should not have much effect. Other than it reducing fuel pressure but that would take quite an obvious heavy leak.

This with the filters contents under constant pressure when running as it is after the lift pump. Now when the engine is off air may enter there and enable back flow of the fuel if the lift pump valves are not essentially perfect. If air gets into the system while running it almost has to be before the lift pump.

I never commented on this before because the majority seemed to think it was a factor and it may be. It just never added up to me. I would welcome any other opinions.

Where I have been going is any leak after the lift pump may allow some drainback. Many of the complaints of hard starting in cold weather I always wondered might be low initial fuel ability initially.. Ideally when you shut the engine down residual fuel under pressure should remain present if the lift pumps two check valves are good.

I was wondering and may have expressed that adding one more check valve to the system overall might not be a bad ideal. Volkswagon does it around the rear axle area on their 1.6 diesel cars. I have run one of their cars without it myself after driving on a gravel road smashed it.

I just borrowed a small piece of hose from the engine compartment. Removed the smashed check valve and substituted the hose and was on my way. So I suspect they have a check valve up ahead and this is just a secondary one at the back of the fuel line. Perhaps a cover if the front one is expected to deteriorate. Running without it made no difference in that car and it remained in service for a long time.
I hear where you're going with this, and your logic makes sense. But, I see a fuel leak, and I have a poor running condition. It makes sense to try to connect those two first. If solving this leak does not affect the running problem, then we know it wasn't necessarily a factor.
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  #26  
Old 10-30-2015, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicBus View Post
Hmmm... That doesn't sound 100% correct to me. I may be misundstanding. thought the cigar hose was the return-to-tank line. Let me see if I understand this correctly.

At the top of the filter housing:
  • the small braided line is the return-from-injectors line
  • the cigar hose is the return-to-tank line
  • the clear plastic hose is ALSO a fuel tank return line? (if so, what route does it take?)
Think in series. You want a clear line on the 8 mm 5/16" barb of the filter tee, spliced in series to the cigar hose or in place of it. The path of the cigar hose returns to the tank. Is that any clearer?

edit: This clear line is custom, not any of the OE clear lines.

With your leaking filter center banjo bolt, it would drain down overnight and you would see a bubble (with engine off) at the highest point of that clear line (should be solid fuel if system was tight), indicating a problem.
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Last edited by funola; 10-30-2015 at 02:17 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-30-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by funola View Post
Think in series. You want a clear line on the 8 mm 5/16" barb of the filter tee, spliced in series to the cigar hose or in place of it. The path of the cigar hose returns to the tank. Is that any clearer?
Much. You're talking about adding some clear line into the mix. Interesting suggestion... not something I ever would have thought of.


For what it's worth, here's my car when I bought it in 2012, followed by what it looks like as of this past Sunday:

























Hopefully, you can see why I want to get it running right
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  #28  
Old 10-30-2015, 02:34 PM
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Nice transformation! You did a lot of work to it.

The clear line I am describing is the best diagnostic aid for air in fuel in a diesel. It gives you an instant indication if you have air in fuel problem or not while the engine is off or idling (and while running if you rig up a remote cam).

Easiest way to install a temporary clear hose is to replace the cigar hose with a length of 1/4" i.d clear PVC tubing from a hardware store. Soak the ends in boiling water to soften, stretch it out with long nose pliers and slip over the 8 mm barbs, use rubber bands as clamps (not really needed if the clear line is temporary since the fit is so tight).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicBus View Post
Much. You're talking about adding some clear line into the mix. Interesting suggestion... not something I ever would have thought of.


For what it's worth, here's my car when I bought it in 2012, followed by what it looks like as of this past Sunday:

























Hopefully, you can see why I want to get it running right
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83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
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  #29  
Old 10-30-2015, 02:46 PM
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I thought lost weekends where a booze thing. You have proved otherwise in this case. Hell of a lot of work done. Looks really good as well.

What you are experiencing now is absolutely nothing in comparison to what you have already done. The chances of it being a bad fault are tiny at best. Actually just a get familiar with your fuel system that is never a waste. The better you know it the easier to fix and maintain it. I am partial to the 616 engines and 240d cars although I have many others.

Actually when this problem is over. I will post my impression of a 240ds fuel system tuneup maintenance requirements. It is a very cheap thing to do and is also well worth at least checking a few things. Many of these fuel systems other than filter changes have never been maintained.

To me it is a credit to the manufacturer of them that was not Mercedes Benz.. That they seem to hold together for longer then the manufacturer ever expected the cars to. Even better if the need is indicated they can be restored easily. This includes two minor improvements where I think the original system designers failed to consider the longer term picture.

Last edited by barry12345; 10-30-2015 at 03:12 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2015, 06:43 PM
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Well, it looks like I got lucky on this one, in a couple of ways. I found the old aluminum crush washer on the ground next to where the car was parked. I cleaned it up and smoothed it out before reinstalling it. I worked the primer pump a bit and started the car. It ran somewhat better - still not perfect.

Then, I ran out to the store to get a new battery. The battery had given up the same night I had the rough-running problem. I got home, installed the battery, and then discovered another showstopper issue.

When I was working on the cooling system, I replaced the hose that goes from the water pump housing to the heater control valve. As the previous owner did, I just routed a long piece of straight hose. Well, the hose had fallen against the exhaust manifold, and as I was running the car in the driveway, it burned through and started spraying coolant. I cut out the bad section of hose and rerouted it.

When I was sure everything was OK, I took the car out for a test drive across town. It was still running a hair rough for the first couple of blocks, but it smoothed back out after that. I'm guessing that some air still needed to work its way out of the system.

The drive across town went well as did the drive back. The car stayed smooth. The last two test... I guess, are whether it's still smooth upon the next cold start, and how it behaves after the next highway run.



So, apologies for the long thread over what may have been just a leaky washer.


Last edited by MagicBus; 10-31-2015 at 07:42 PM.
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