240D Top Speed ? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

car54 · #1 05-27-2002, 10:55 PM

Be happy that your 240D can do 90. I'll pass you like nothing. this was hauling up a mountain on I-70 in WVA. hey turbodiesel, ever see the boost this high when you owned her?

car54 · #2 05-27-2002, 11:00 PM

BTW, I wont lie. that speedo reads 9-11mph high. it will peg it, and keep accelerating until 4800-5000rpm when it simply runs out of power.. funny thing, diesels tend to run out of power around 5000rpm. why? the piston speed is higher than the burn rate of diesel, so the flame chases the piston down, creating no power.

I got 125mph out of it on my GPS. this is the highest I ever got it.

#3 05-28-2002, 12:06 AM

Before you condemn me totally, here is what I want you all to try. Just try what I am going to tell you, then report back to me with "your own" findings.

Use Nothing but Amoco Premium diesel fuel (50 cetane). Use nothing but Diesel Kleen by Power Service.

Mix Diesel Kleen with your fuel accordingly - per first tankfull add 12 ounces, upon second fillup add another 10 ounces - but fill up will be from 1/2 tank. Each time there after upon every fillup add a minimum of 8-10 ounces of Diesel Kleen.

(the mixture of diesel kleen and diesel fuel will be greater than the 6 point fuel cetane boost rating)

Try each time to achive the maximum speed at least once per fill up.

Let me know what you notice after 375 to 450 miles.

Do this with your natural aspirated 240D, to make the comparison close, Infact, I am sure you'll notice a difference in even the 5 cylinder engines as well.

Did you gain speed or power?

Many of you are more than likely are using normal #2 diesel fuel - the cheap stuff. That has a cetane rating of 40 or less. Amoco has a Minimum Cetane rating of 50. (meaning it can be more than 50 but not less than)
Now you may think what difference could fuel make - don't quibble, just try for yourself and tell me what you find.

Incidently - my 1974 240D now reaches 80mph - and it has more power than before - I fill it up with the same process as the '78.
When I first got it, it was lucky to see 74mph! With each fillup it gets faster and more powerful.
Just try the above, what do you have to loose? Other than some pride. You may have to eat your own words.

car54 · #4 05-28-2002, 12:35 AM

you think that cetane = power? ok.. just keep on dreamin. your just like the guy who puts premium gas in his 1956 bel air with 7:1 compression..

#5 05-28-2002, 01:17 AM

Just for your information - Premium gasoline will help you keep that Tecumseh or Briggs&Stratton running fine also!
Try it, you might be surprised at what you get. 2 Push lawn mowers - one filled with 87 octane the other filled with 94 octane. let them set for a year or more, I bet you can't start that 87 octane mower, but I bet that 94 octane mower will start with no more than 2-3 pulls, actually I've seen this done and I have experinced it myself. So laugh all you want.

And actually, that 1956 Bel-Aire with the 7:1 comp. ratio would also benefit from 94 octane.

But, like I said before, try it, what do you have to loose. Other than eating your very own words!

By the way, Carburated gas engines will gain more benefits from Premium gasoline than a fuel injected computer run car.

You Do Not Have To Have a High performance engine to reap the good results of premium higher octane or cetane.

Case in point - 83 231 cid v6 Buick 2 bbl. Regal - Run 87 octane and get a consistant 17mpg - run 94 octane and get a very consistant 23-25mpg.
So, what are the gains? Besides the gas mileage? Starts better and runs cleaner.
Sorry, but that is Proven Fact! I owned the car for 5 years and put on close to 85,000 miles!
Most of which had premium gas in it. All of my small engines run Nothing but premium. From a push lawnmower to a rider to my trucks. And my Mercedes.

But, then you find it easier to become a keyboard rambo and mouth off about something you have no actual experience with. I have over 30 years of experience!

"you think that cetane = power? ok.. just keep on dreamin. "

how many miles have you got and how many gallons of fuel do you have under your belt to justify this quote? Or are you just guessing? Sir, I have well over 500,000 miles of Not guessing, but of experience!

The Calculator does not tell lies! The Odometer, the gas station pump readings and the calculator doesn't know how to lie! Doesn't know how to dream, doesn't know how to fabricate. You enter the figures, it calculates the answer for you, you write down those figures and in time, using both premium and regular fuels you soon find the answer.
You now have a very good journal with which to find out the actual differences. You have experienced it, it is there on paper.

When you leave the stop light and you notice a an improvement in power than you normally had, when your speedometer registers higher figures - is the speedometer telling you a lie? Is the speedometer fabricating a dream or story? Does the same speedometer that you have grown accustomed to seeing everyday all of a sudden get a very optimistic attitude?
Hummm!
This is what is known as Facts! Experienced fact that you know, because you see it. You didn't just have an out of body experience and realize this was all a big dream! It is REAL! FACTUAL! REAL REALITY!

car54 · #6 05-28-2002, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Benz240D
Sir, I have well over 500,000 miles of Not guessing, but of experience!

Quote:

But then I am only a young 49 year old with only 1.5 million miles under my belt in a Semi.

You cant even agree on how many miles youve driven. What does miles driven have anything to do with this topic? i'd say its more scientific than how many miles you have driven, and your background is nothing more than long hours behind the wheel of a big semi.. yup, that makes you an expert!

If you had any clue, you would know that cetane and octane are simply a measure of how fast the fuel burns and how hot it has to be to autoignite. It has nothing to do with performance. However, I should have remembered that your a truck driver with a ton of miles and know everything.

I'm sorry to see you havent figured it out in the last 49 years. I'm a young 20 years old and have already got it. We're not all experts on everything, maybe you need to suck it up and realize you dont know everything there is to know about fuel. since your sure theres a difference between fuel with dieselkleen and fuel without, explain why. I can sit here and explain to you that the btu content of the fuel is unchanged so no actual difference could have possibly taken place, and that with gasoline, that little number on the pump is meaningless, it is just an "antiknock index" number that was found by adding the RON and MON (research and motor octane number) and the dividing by two. (R+M / 2). So the antiknock index of the fuel gives you better performance and economy? maybe, but only if the engine was pinging on the lower rated fuel. otherwise, there will be no difference, and it has no effect on starting either. Of course you are a simple minded trucker who doesnt understand any of this, as youve already proven. You aimlessly add chemicals to your fuel and post junk about how premium fuel adds power and economy.

and BTW, My Honda power equipment always starts on the first pull, on 87 octane fuel.

And my diesels run on 53 cetane 100% sulphur free biodiesel. By simply knowing this, I should be getting enough power out of my 300D to outrun donnies little CLK55AMG Kleeman!

#7 05-28-2002, 11:29 AM

"...how hot it has to be to autoignite. It has nothing to do with performance. However,..."

So, this is the reason why people who drag race try to obtain a much higher flashpoint? So, you are then saying that a 5000 horsepower engine can get that much horsepower from 87 octane gas station pumped gas, right?

as to the Quote: "...well over 500,000 miles... " You didn't happen to see those two words "well over" did you? So, now who is the brain ball?

And as to the dummy who stated that lower compression allows an engine run higher RPM's. That too is a falsehood - COMPRESSION IS HORSEPOWER - And has No bearing on how many rpm's an engine runs. The timing ignition plays a much greater role in how fast and engine turns.

People who have responded to this subject matter do not use common logical sense. They have tried to pick apart what I have merely stated as factual. What I have "experienced".

Gasoline throught the US is fairly well regulated as to the octane rating by the US Government Weights and Measurements. There are very stiff fines for selling a lower rated fuel for higher rated.

On the other hand, diesel fuel is not as well regulated. From station to station it can vary quite considerably.
Amoco Has high standards, and they are known for having high standars with their fuel.

THIS is where being a "Trucker" brings in the experience. Because most readers here do not haul heavy loads over the mountains they do not know what difference the fuel can make.
Most readers don't see a 1 mpg or 2 mpg or even 3 mpg increase. They don't get on average 5 miles per gallon. So when a trucker can claim 6 or 7 or even 8 miles per gallon, that is a lot!

But extra miles per gallon also gives better performance. And a few gears less downshifting.

Most readers because they've not ever hauled 75 to 80+ thousand pound loads on the USA roads don't know what a huge difference a good quality diesel fuel can make. They don't see or know about the difference between 35 cetane and 55 cetane. They don't understand what the difference is.

They also don't know that running good engine oil can also play a role in the performance of the engine they drive.

Most readers do not know about Racing. They do not understand what the higher octanes or higher Cetanes can give. They do not know that alcohol is added to diesel fuel to make it burn hotter! They don' know about adding exotic fuels to the diesel fuel to make it give more horsepower, more speed.

Why? for one, most Mercedes owners do not drag/circle race their 85 thousand dollar car. They may drive to work or to the store for milk or just cruise down the highway not caring how fast or how much performance their Mercedes has.

Or the Mercedes owner that has an antique car, he/she doesn't care about speed or performance. So they do not know or care.

"....difference between fuel with dieselkleen and fuel without, explain why."

READ THE BOTTLE - they didn't put pictures on it for 20 year olds to see them, they placed words on the bottle so that people who can read will know what those words say.

Fuel Booster - this word describes adding more ponies to your fuel tank and to your engine. Higher Cetane means more Ponies, more ponies means more performance. hummmm!

Now, according to the bottle (yes this old man reads and that is how this old man knows and this old man has the experience you young boys don't have yet) there are "2" mix rates, you can treat 100 gallons of fuel and get 3 points (3 points refers to the cetane rating, it means you are going to get higher perfomance) and if you read further, you will note that it says if you mix at a greater ratio, thereby treating 50 gallons, the CETANE RATING Increases to (six) 6 points.
So, now if you are running your BIO-Fuel, your high performing 53 Cetane, you will then get at Least 59 Cetane. 53+6=59.

Also, Diesel Kleen does other things to the engine and to your precious injection pump, lubricating it. The New low emission diesel fuel runs Dry. Do you know what this Dry fuel has done to people in the business of rebuilding pumps? They are now Swamped with business!
Why? because when the EPA Government mandated this newer fuel, they don't give a damn about your injection pump! They don't care if it doesn't last because it now doesn't have the lubricating qualities it once had. EPA isn't the one paying the bill on your dead injection pump! Or on your dead injectors!

By the way - for over 40 yrs gas and oil was part of my life, it is how my family made their living. My family was in the gas and oil business. So, being a child rasied in this kind of business, wouldn't it seem obvious I might just know a bit more?
Also being a promoter in Racing, it would seem that I might have gained knowledge in this area. Being a trucker, it would seem that I might know a bit more.

Son, how many gallons of diesel fuel have you gone through in your short span of life? How many miles have you driven.
Miles - what does miles have to do with anything? Miles means gallons of fuel.
Lots of fuel, lots of different fuel from California to Maine to Florida to Washington state. Criss-crossing this country in the USA many many times.
Until you have experienced bad fuel and have experienced good premium fuel, you will never know the difference.
Until you get a hold of some bad fuel so bad that you don't have the power to go over small hills without a lot of spark knocking (yes, a diesel will spark knock) and you have to drop down to granny gear just to get over th hill, until then son, you will never know!
So, now what does a trucker know that a young man doesn't know?
How many mountains have you crossed over with a gross vehicle weight of 80,000lbs. with a 300 horsepower Cummins engine with 3.50 rears and governed to 63 mph which means you have to hold your foot on the throttle wide open from the time that you climb into that truck untill you get to your destination?

How many mountains have you drove the same roads with a 430 or 510 Catapillar motor with 4.44 rears or 4.10 rear gears with a 9 or 10 or 13 or 16 speed transmission. How many? How many miles of "Experience" do you have?

How many gallons of good premium fuel have you experienced, how many miles of bad nasty watered down diesel fuel have you bought and driven?

This statement made;
"So the antiknock index of the fuel gives you better performance and economy? maybe, but only if the engine was pinging on the lower rated fuel. otherwise, there will be no difference, and it has no effect on starting either. "

also shows me that you have ZERO Experience and do not know much!

You are referring to engines of today that use a COMPUTER to run the car.
Show me the computer chips on my 1978 Mercedes, show them to me on my 1974 Mercedes!~ oops, no computer huh?

You are using figures and data that some engineer came up with. A way to base the figures by and those figures are not always right. It is a computer figured.

"Of course you are a simple minded trucker who doesnt understand any of this, as youve already proven. You aimlessly add chemicals to your fuel and post junk about how premium fuel adds power and economy. "

This again refers to a young man who doesn't have a bit of experience.
Until you have experience, until you have tried this and tried that, until you know By YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES, Untill you yourself have experience to base your claims and so called facts, don't be a snibbling fool with no basis to base upon and come on a Forum letting everyone know how stupid you are. You are not smart enough to know.
WHY? because you have no experience, you haven't lived long enough. I drove over the road for 5 years, the rest was instate.
I have drove for more years than you are old.

I don't know why I even bother arguing with a child!

Eberhard Weilke · #8 05-28-2002, 06:07 PM

...we should stop starting insulting people.

Since I was refered to as "...to the dummy who stated that lower compression allows more rpm..." I would like to put some things into the right picture:

First of all: Alright, I have not driven some thousand miles around in a truck. Well, maybe a couple of years in Mercedes Benz Diesel Taxis in different stages of deterioation counts as experience

If never owned or operated a workshop (otherwise I wouldn't have replaced the cigar hose at a friends car -I put it back already) or have done any training as mechanic.

Well, maybe working for ten years on all kinds of different cars counts as some experience.

So, coming back to the compression issue: The guys actually optimized their OM 617 engine that way. The procedure was not my brainchild, it was done on an actual car which went racing a couple of years ago. I will see if I can find the articel. Must be somewhere in my archive

What I know for sure was that they got more than 100 hp out of the former 80 hp engine. The mayor improvement came from the lowered compression, which was done by a machined plate they put between the crankcase and the cylinderblock.

Getting back to the fuel issue: We actually tested different gasolines with different octane settings in a pretty thourough way. We had four cars (all W 123.223) which got separated fuel tanks in the trunk. The buckets could be taken out of the car and could be measured down to the tenth of a gram. We had a designated test track which we could run every time with the exact speed etc.

What we figured out after several testruns was the following:

High octane fuel makes sense in an enigne which was designed for high octane fuel. Very important is also the setting of the ignition point. You could adjust the M 102 to 95, 98 and 99 Octane (the European rating is somehow measured differently)

The best fuel economy and the highest power output you got with the 99 Octane stuff with the adjusted ignition setting.

If you didn't adjust the ignition: No difference between 95 or 99.

If someone can tell me how to post more than one picture I'm happy to show you what we did.

Until then you have to live with a simple picture of me

So that some people know whom they called a dummy.

Kind regards
Eberhard

#9 05-28-2002, 06:19 PM

I agree with Bill and some others... this is getting way out of hand, and it won't even matter a month from now... so who gives a *what*??!?!

Peace

-Joe

engatwork · #10 05-28-2002, 06:36 PM

I'm with Bill on this. There is no need in carrying on like this in a setting that is supposed to be a friendly forum where we spend time to help each other out. The secret is to not let this stuff get personal. I have no doubt that a 240D will run 90 mph, I have seen mine there and it has an automatic but in all honesty I could not take the noise

. I purchase my fuel from a very busy truck stop and use different additives based on what is in the trunk at the time I fill up.
If I wanted to get into an argument I would go talk with the wife about how much $$ I spend on these old cars

.
Let's enjoy and get as much good info out of these forums without it getting personal.
Everyone on here sees things different and can provide a different slant on alot of different subjects based on learning and experience so let's use these various inputs to help resolve issues and/or problems that we run into keeping these babies running.

EW - how bout a good pic of that old W111 diesel at speed?

t walgamuth · #11 07-03-2011, 10:26 PM

My observation is that around 85 the governor kicks in and you don't accelerate any more. Now if you have a 5 speed od the gov won't kick in until 18% higher or about 100 mph.

Unless this governor is different on a euro (a possibility) I don't see 90 mph on a four speed except down hill or with a tail wind.

Or the governor might be disabled.

barry123400 · #12 07-04-2011, 11:48 AM

I still own a 240d four speed in storage that seems a little quicker than average. I put it in storage when we got home till I get time to find out why.

It does have a new replacement factory engine in it installed a year before I brought it. The main reason it is left to examine is the fuel milage appeared to be better than average as well.

This was not scientifically verified just how it seemed on the seventeen hundred mile trip home. Yes it was an ebay car and the vendors basically knew nothing about it.

Other than their german former mercedes benz mechanic in europe I talked to. He made a recomendation that I buy it. He personally drove it for three weeks and said I would not be dissapointed.

I hope when and if I get to it. What was experienced on that long trip home will not prove a total figment of my imagination.

I am primarily interested on why the fuel milage seemed better than it should have been. It was very hot on that trip and I have noticed older volkswagon diesels get better milage when it is very hot out. I have at the same time never heard this mentioned on the 240ds so I have to discount it.

We drove down in my wifes new at the time tdi volkswagon diesel to pick it up. Every time we fuelled up it seemed to take more fuel than the volkswagon. Still not enough more to make a lot of sense though.

One other concern is I always thought the revs were limited to protect the injection pump. The block is capable of higher revolutions. This may or may not be accurate.

Eberhard Weilke · #13 05-28-2002, 06:51 PM

...it was a W 115.

Good night, guys. Gotto work tomorrow

Kind regards
Eberhard

Gilly · #14 05-28-2002, 09:44 PM

I had a 220D (around a 72 or 73?) I worked on last fall with low power output. Found the linkage badly out of adjustment. I ended up getting about 80 or so out of that before I was through!
(Or so the speedometer read

)
Gilly

Gilly · #15 05-28-2002, 10:59 PM

This 220D was the one with the throttle plate, over on the right side of the valve cover. No idea of the theory involved, but it wasn't opening far enough, and the pump on the thing was kinda wierd too, didn't really have a wide-open throttle stop, but didn't seem to be opening as much as it should have. A couple adjustment/roadtest cycles and it ran great!
Gilly